GUSTAV question

[kettbo]

I have a quick question on the Gustav variants.
Here goes, for Bf109G-6.

The /U2 is GM1
I know approx 500 planes were converted, early 1944, for this equipment to be used w/MW50 vs former GM1 use. I understand, could be wrong, that they remained with the /U2 designation.

Then we have the /U3 version. One member here told me on a previous thread long back, that /U3 was a reconaissance built plane (featuring MW50?).
Most of my printed sources say /U3 were planes were outfitted with the MW50.

I also recall someone here saying: (paraphrased)
A Bf109G-6/U3 has the MW50 and a gauge bolted under the dash and a G-6 data plate, while a Bf109G-14 has the gauge in the instrument panel and the G-14 data plate....

So, what is the truth here? Recce plane or regular fighter with MW50?

 

[Denniss]

The Recon bird was /R3 (a long range recon with a drop tank under each wing), /U3 was a fighter with added MW50 system.
It's claimed that many /U2 were converted to MW50, using some parts of the previous GM1 installation.
The /U3 was later to become the G-14.
Can't comment on the instrumentation issue, probably originating from the /U2 conversion to MW50

 

[kettbo]

The Recon bird was /R3 (a long range recon with a drop tank under each wing), /U3 was a fighter with added MW50 system.
It's claimed that many /U2 were converted to MW50, using some parts of the previous GM1 installation.
The /U3 was later to become the G-14.
Can't comment on the instrumentation issue, probably originating from the /U2 conversion to MW50

Hi Denniss

This morning I dug into all the GUSTAV performance threads from years past. This took me some time to find.
from the "Messerschmitt Bf109 Chronology" thread by Corsning, post #77 dated 28 Oct 2014
I made bold the passage that likely led to my trouble.


"In the first three months of 44 could could probably cound /AS machines in service with one or two hands (2 converted in jan, 26 in February, 19 in March 44, more facs starting in April 44 though with 168 overall by April 44). /U3 is not MW-50, that's a tactical recon version. Some G-6/MW appeared in summer 44 (AFAIR May/June) , the forerunner of the G-14. No idea when they started rebuilding the /U2 into MW fighters.
Assuming only Erla built G-5 then 230 were delivered by the end of 43"


I found more info on GM1 and MW50 installation in Michulec's MESSERSCHMITT Me109 pt2 pg 33, 36-39. I found this gem a few months ago at Half Price Books in Tacoma for a mere $15 USD! This went straight to my bookcase until last evening.
brief summary:
o The /U2 GM1 and /U3 MW50 tanks and plumbing being the same, just the filler nozzle being different for liquified gas (GM1) or liquid (MW50). This makes perfect sense.
o There was enough MW 50 for 40 minutes! Ten minutes per session with 5 minutes between uses.
o Continuing on to pg 39 Michulec says the GM1/MW50 tank could also be used as a fuel tank 110-115 liter of 118 liter total capacity. He says that the conversion is listed in the handbook. The feedline must be changed from the engine induction to the main fuel tank. I was unaware of this option.
o also stated is (obvious to me) that the MW50 is for extra power below the rated altitude and GM1 is for more power above the rated altitude.

My references shows projected production of /U2 as 500 over the Winter of 43-44 by Erla. Radinger and Otto MESSERSCHMITT Bf109F-K p. 46. No mention of /U3 MW50. Still looking for a source showing new build /U3. Perhaps the /U3 may be from the rebuild and upgrade shops. Knowing how the German were precise, U1-U4, with /U-3 listed...they must be out there somewhere! Actual detailed production details and rebuild facilities would be awesome. Someone please point me in the right direction.

I have not seen a unit strength or loss report showing "G-6/MW" though my stack of books is far from complete.
Where did you see this? please share!
I am (still) working on a project and I'd like to have the correct info in building my miniatures game rather than find out later.

FWIW, the German WIKI has lots more info on the Bf109 than the English version.

 

[taly01]

To confuse things after summer 1944 the /U /R codes were redone with every new -dash variant, I don't know if this was an RLM policy, but I think /U2 changed from meaning GM-1/MW50 to be a tall wooden tail!

I haven't found the reason why this confusing policy was introduced, but I fear it was a bureaucrats order.

 

[kettbo]

To confuse things after summer 1944 the /U /R codes were redone with every new -dash variant, I don't know if this was an RLM policy, but I think /U2 changed from meaning GM-1/MW50 to be a tall wooden tail!

I haven't found the reason why this confusing policy was introduced, but I fear it was a bureaucrats order.

On 12 O'Clock High, I have a Similar thread
over there they say NO U3 fighter model made but part of a recce conversion. Think I've completed a whole circle back to the starting point.
Bf109G-6/U-3 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

 

[kettbo]

I found this little gem:

ME 109g-6 u4 arnaments? - Page 3 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum. post #30
KURFURST said
The G-6 / MW 50 is iirc an early designation for those G-6s carrying MW-50 boost, too. The /R2 bird is a fighter-recce version with cameras and MW-50.

And the G-14, since it had MW-50 as factory production standard, as some ancient paper tells us, is 'wie G-6', but the MW-50 system is using compressed air 'auf Ladeluftbasis'.

the early MW-50 G-6s were usually simple-to-do conversions (only a valve was changed and MW-50 was filled instead of GM-1 afaik) from GM-1 tank carrying high-alt fighters, which used compressed air carried onboard in oxygene bottles, to force GM-1 into the eye of the supercharger. Since GM-1 was a spring fuel used in emergency, it was a simple enough solution, since most fighters didn't carry GM-1.

When the first GM-1 birds were converted to MW-50, they kept that system to force the MW-50 tanks content into the supercharger -
a leftover from the GM-1 system..

The G-14, and later 'proper' MW-50 aircraft were built from the start with MW50 boost in mind, and thus they simply tapped the supercharger's surplus compressed air into the MW-50 tank to do the same - same metod was used for a long time with the droptanks, no need for extra pumps that can go wrong...



Are these G-6/MW50 exclusively for /R2 recon or are they coming out of a shop somewhere for non recon planes? or Are these G-6/MW exclusively converts from the Bf109G 5 and 6/U2?
Or BOTH?