Halifax II
- Thread starter Nick
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Hi Nick and welcome. I don't know but many here do.
Snautzer01
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The closet one I could find is the Handley Page Halifax Mk. II Series IA (Serial No. HR871) of the No. 405 Squadron, RCAF, coded "LQ*B". She was one of a serial block of 47 ( HR837 -HR880 ) aircraft built by Handley Page's facility at Radlett Aerodrome in Hertfordshire. Although the pic is quite blurry it looks like the bomber had the early fins and late plexiglass nose and no H2S dome.
the pic source: WWII relic: Swedish waters finally give up bomber wreck
Here is a picture of the Handley Page Halifax Mk. II (Serial No. HR918) of the No. 405 Squadron, RCAF, coded "LQ*G". HR918 was shot down in 1943. The same appearance like the HR871.
the pic source: the net.
the pic source: WWII relic: Swedish waters finally give up bomber wreck
Here is a picture of the Handley Page Halifax Mk. II (Serial No. HR918) of the No. 405 Squadron, RCAF, coded "LQ*G". HR918 was shot down in 1943. The same appearance like the HR871.
the pic source: the net.
HR864 would have rolled off the production line with the standard triangular fin shape without incorporating modifications to it to aid in curing the rudder over balance issues plaguing the type. The D Type fin, named as such because different fin/rudder designs were designated by letter, was a 50% increase in surface area over the Type A, which was the original triangular shape, and was fitted first to Halifax II R9534, which was fitted with Bristol Hercules engines, thus becoming the prototype of the Halifax Mk.III. The new fins became Mod 814 and were incorporated on Halifax IIs on the production lines in June 1943, while squadron Halifax IIs had Mod 814 gradually applied to them throughout the remainder of 1943. This means that HR864 would have had the Type A triangular fins when built.
Yes to the plexiglass nose, which was introduced on the production line in late 1942, the first production aircraft, HR679 referred to as a Halifax Mk.II Series 1A rolled off the production line at Radlett on Christmas Eve 1942 and was in the same production contract as HR864. This would have also been fitted with the Boulton Paul Type A Mk.VIII low profile four-gun turret in the mid upper position, as opposed to the bulbous Type C turret of previous Halifax Mk.IIs.
No to H2S, as the Halifax Mk.IIs fitted with it were nominally assigned to 35 Sqn with the Pathfinder Force, and by the time H2S came into mainstream squadron use, priority was given to Lancaster squadrons.
Another small detail regarding your Halifax is that it would have had Morris block radiators fitted to its engine nacelles, which were characterised by their bulky square shape. This was as opposed to the earlier Mk.IIs that had Gallay radiators, which can be distinguished by a small intake below the radiator opening.
I hope this helps.
- Thread starter
- #6
Hi Wurger, thank you so much for your answer. I'm writing a book on the mentioned crash and want to have my facts straight. It's a series 1a with the triangular fins.
Thank you too Nuumannn. Same as above. By the way 405 sqn was part of P.F.F. since 19 april 1943 and stationed at RAF Gransden Lodge. In the Combat Reports training on H2S is mentioned in the period.
Thank you too Nuumannn. Same as above. By the way 405 sqn was part of P.F.F. since 19 april 1943 and stationed at RAF Gransden Lodge. In the Combat Reports training on H2S is mentioned in the period.
- Thread starter
- #7
Hi Nnuumannn, I just found that on a raid on Cologne on 28 june '43 LQ-O sufferd a heavy explosion underneath the arcraft and the pilot reported that I.F.F., Gee, H2S and T.R. 9 were u/s. So it seems that they were using H2S on Halifax II. (Operations Record June 1943)
IIRC, a small number of the Halifax B.II Series IA was fitted with the H2S radar. By 1 January 1943, only twelve Halifax bombers had been fitted with radar. Also, as memory serves, the H2S was used for the pathfinders as well. But it doesn't mean that all pathfinder Halifaxes had the device mounted. Even in many pics of the Mk. III dated 1943/44 it can be found that the number of the bombers with the radar wasn't still great.
- Thread starter
- #9
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 908
- Sep 30, 2021
HR864 was delivered on 14 May 1943, first entry on its card is dated 31 May, to 405 squadron on 25 June and lost on 25 July. It is likely to have remained in its as built state apart from fitting H2S, given how quickly it was lost, 405 squadron had moved to 8 group on 18 April 1943. Its card is NOT marked series IA, probably had 66.5 flying hours when lost.
HP built: HR841 card first reported series IA, then HR845, 847, 855, 857, 858, 860, 862, 866, 867, 868, 870, 873, 874 to 877, 879, 907, 909 to 913, 915, 916, 919 to 922, 924 to 927, 929, 930, 932, 935, 939, 942, 943, 945 to 952, 977 to 979, 982 to HR988
Many Halifax references note the roughly early to mid 1943 introduction of the transparent nose, a four gun mid upper turret, Merlin 22, rectangular fins and new radiators as the change over for the mark II and V from series I to series Ia. With plenty of earlier production modified in at least one way to the new standard. Complicated further by having 5 production lines. AVIA 46/112, the Halifax official biography, notes the four gun turret was fitted starting around February 1943 and the official difference between series I and Ia is whether a new radiator was fitted. The MAP statistical bulletins have data for series I radiator production July 1942 to May 1944 and series Ia December 1942 to August 1944, it is assumed after the respective end dates the figures are moved to the "other" column. The MAP figures agreeing a radiator change was the official difference. The prototype series Ia was HR679, first flight in December 1942 and delivered in January 1943 to the A&AEE under CRD. Examination of the individual Form 78 aircraft cards indicates the change over started no later than May 1943 for Handley Page, July for London Aircraft Production, Rootes and Fairey but no indication for English Electric which fitted Merlin XX to end production, while Rootes used both Merlin XX and 22 to end production. Mathematically if you release all the series Ia radiators built so far to the factories in May 1943 you still cannot make all production for the month series Ia, you have to wait until June. It takes until October before series Ia radiator production exceeds the number needed to equip all new Halifax production for the month. The use of series Ia was due to series II being allocated to a two stage Merlin variant, which was flight tested in April/May 1943.
HP II serials, HR660 in December 1942, seems to be the first Merlin 22, the later serials all have Merlin 22 except for HR668, HR681, HR684, HR697–HR699, and HR711 with Merlin XX; HR672 engines are unclear; HR678 and HR682 engines not given and HR713 with Merlin 28. The first serial with Ia marked on its card is HR841 in May 1943, then HR845, HR847, HR855, as time goes on more cards are marked Ia
LAP II looks like they begin fitting Merlin 22 with BB329 in March 1943, JN882 the first Ia in July 1943, JN884 no series information, JN885 on seem to be series Ia.
English Electric II were still fitting Merlin XX to end production in October 1943, none of the cards checked were marked Ia.
Fairey V began fitting Merlin 22 with DK235 in June 1943 and it appears to be a clean change over, with DK244 in July the first card marked Ia, but some later cards have no series information.
Rootes V first series Ia LK890 in July 1943, again not all cards marked. Not all have engine marks, LK901 and subsequent are Merlin XX, LK960 in October 1943 has Merlin 20 written then 22 added, after that it is mostly Merlin 20 with some 22, the final mark V LL534 to LL542 all had Merlin XX.
HP built: HR841 card first reported series IA, then HR845, 847, 855, 857, 858, 860, 862, 866, 867, 868, 870, 873, 874 to 877, 879, 907, 909 to 913, 915, 916, 919 to 922, 924 to 927, 929, 930, 932, 935, 939, 942, 943, 945 to 952, 977 to 979, 982 to HR988
Many Halifax references note the roughly early to mid 1943 introduction of the transparent nose, a four gun mid upper turret, Merlin 22, rectangular fins and new radiators as the change over for the mark II and V from series I to series Ia. With plenty of earlier production modified in at least one way to the new standard. Complicated further by having 5 production lines. AVIA 46/112, the Halifax official biography, notes the four gun turret was fitted starting around February 1943 and the official difference between series I and Ia is whether a new radiator was fitted. The MAP statistical bulletins have data for series I radiator production July 1942 to May 1944 and series Ia December 1942 to August 1944, it is assumed after the respective end dates the figures are moved to the "other" column. The MAP figures agreeing a radiator change was the official difference. The prototype series Ia was HR679, first flight in December 1942 and delivered in January 1943 to the A&AEE under CRD. Examination of the individual Form 78 aircraft cards indicates the change over started no later than May 1943 for Handley Page, July for London Aircraft Production, Rootes and Fairey but no indication for English Electric which fitted Merlin XX to end production, while Rootes used both Merlin XX and 22 to end production. Mathematically if you release all the series Ia radiators built so far to the factories in May 1943 you still cannot make all production for the month series Ia, you have to wait until June. It takes until October before series Ia radiator production exceeds the number needed to equip all new Halifax production for the month. The use of series Ia was due to series II being allocated to a two stage Merlin variant, which was flight tested in April/May 1943.
HP II serials, HR660 in December 1942, seems to be the first Merlin 22, the later serials all have Merlin 22 except for HR668, HR681, HR684, HR697–HR699, and HR711 with Merlin XX; HR672 engines are unclear; HR678 and HR682 engines not given and HR713 with Merlin 28. The first serial with Ia marked on its card is HR841 in May 1943, then HR845, HR847, HR855, as time goes on more cards are marked Ia
LAP II looks like they begin fitting Merlin 22 with BB329 in March 1943, JN882 the first Ia in July 1943, JN884 no series information, JN885 on seem to be series Ia.
English Electric II were still fitting Merlin XX to end production in October 1943, none of the cards checked were marked Ia.
Fairey V began fitting Merlin 22 with DK235 in June 1943 and it appears to be a clean change over, with DK244 in July the first card marked Ia, but some later cards have no series information.
Rootes V first series Ia LK890 in July 1943, again not all cards marked. Not all have engine marks, LK901 and subsequent are Merlin XX, LK960 in October 1943 has Merlin 20 written then 22 added, after that it is mostly Merlin 20 with some 22, the final mark V LL534 to LL542 all had Merlin XX.
My pleasure ..
Here you are a pic of the HR861 also marked as the Mk.II Series IA ... so that's the closest one to your kite. The darkest place is under the candle ...
the source: Handley Page Halifax
- Thread starter
- #12
Geoffrey Sinclair, thank you very much. You mention the fitting of H2S on this airplane. Is that certain? Or just possible?
Wow!!! Magnificent picture indeed! I want to use it in my book. Houw do I acknowledge where it came from?My pleasure ..
Here you are a pic of the HR861 also marked as the Mk.II Series IA ... so that's the closest one to your kite. The darkest place is under the candle ...
View attachment 764825
the source: Handley Page Halifax
- Thread starter
- #13
As my research is progressing, I can mention that on the first raid on Hamburg as part of Operation Gomorrah on 25 july 1943, in the combat reports LQ-S, LQ-R and LQ-V of 405 sqn. mentioned that they used 'special equipment' to find their aiming point. LQ-M, or HR864 didn't mention that, so I assume they were not fitted with H2S. LQ-O did not mention the use of H2S or special equipment, but on an earlier raid on Montbeliard (F) LQ-O reported that R.D.F detonated just before landing at base. Anyway thank you all for contributing. Great help!
Here is another shot of the HR861. IIRC the images are under the Imperial War Museum (IMW) licence. Here is the link to their site where you may find out about the copyrights ... AIRCRAFT OF THE ROYAL AIR FORCE 1939-1945: HANDLEY PAGE HP.57 HALIFAX.
the source: Halifax II HR861 [Royal Air Force Aircraft Serial and Image Database]
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 908
- Sep 30, 2021
No definite information H2S was fitted to HR624.
Date, target 405 squadron, (PFF = carried Target Indicators), raid sighting method via Richard Davis, whether M flew that night,
28 June Cologne 7 PFF, 5 bomber, Oboe, "M not used"
3 July Cologne 7 PFF, 4 bomber, Oboe "M sortie", 8 Group sent 18 Halifax, 16 attacked, 28 Marker Bombs
9 July Gelsenkirchen, 4 bomber, Oboe "M sortie", 8 Group sent 12 Halifax, 12 attacked, no Marker Bombs
13 July Aachen 9 PFF, 3 bomber, Oboe, "M sortie", 8 Group sent 30 Halifax, 28 attacked, 45 Marker Bombs
15 July Montbeliard 9 PFF, 3 bomber, H2S, "M sortie", 8 Group sent 31 Halifax, 30 attacked, 68 Marker Bombs, all Halifax raid.
24 July Hamburg 12 PFF, 3 bomber, H2S, "M sortie", 8 Group sent 37 Halifax, 32 attacked, 64 Marker Bombs
25 July Essen 6 PFF, 5 bomber, Oboe, "M lost", 8 Group sent 23 Halifax, 22 attacked, 35 Marker Bombs
405 squadron see Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books - Héritage Reel C-12270 around image 1259.
Easy to see many 8 group sorties were standard bomber ones, no target marking done, no need to carry a H2S set.
With Oboe in use the other 8 group aircraft should have been briefed to back up the markers dropped by Mosquitoes, falling back to H2S if the Oboe markers failed.
Date, target 405 squadron, (PFF = carried Target Indicators), raid sighting method via Richard Davis, whether M flew that night,
28 June Cologne 7 PFF, 5 bomber, Oboe, "M not used"
3 July Cologne 7 PFF, 4 bomber, Oboe "M sortie", 8 Group sent 18 Halifax, 16 attacked, 28 Marker Bombs
9 July Gelsenkirchen, 4 bomber, Oboe "M sortie", 8 Group sent 12 Halifax, 12 attacked, no Marker Bombs
13 July Aachen 9 PFF, 3 bomber, Oboe, "M sortie", 8 Group sent 30 Halifax, 28 attacked, 45 Marker Bombs
15 July Montbeliard 9 PFF, 3 bomber, H2S, "M sortie", 8 Group sent 31 Halifax, 30 attacked, 68 Marker Bombs, all Halifax raid.
24 July Hamburg 12 PFF, 3 bomber, H2S, "M sortie", 8 Group sent 37 Halifax, 32 attacked, 64 Marker Bombs
25 July Essen 6 PFF, 5 bomber, Oboe, "M lost", 8 Group sent 23 Halifax, 22 attacked, 35 Marker Bombs
405 squadron see Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books - Héritage Reel C-12270 around image 1259.
Easy to see many 8 group sorties were standard bomber ones, no target marking done, no need to carry a H2S set.
With Oboe in use the other 8 group aircraft should have been briefed to back up the markers dropped by Mosquitoes, falling back to H2S if the Oboe markers failed.
- Thread starter
- #16
I have some questions on certain abbreviations I can't decipher. In june 1943 405 Halifax P.F.F. squadron was training between sorties. Bomb Aimers were lectured on "Y"-equipment. Does anybody know what that stands for? In the load carried on operations is mentioned : 2 LB green and 3 ord. T.I. green. Wat does "LB" and "ord." mean? Also occurs : 500 MC (TD inst.). I get the medium capacity part but what is meant bij "TD inst."? Somewhere else mention is made of a "bulls-eye" operation.
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The Y-device system, was a single-beam electronic distance measuring system used to aid aircraft navigation. In Germany it was the Y-Geräte VHF low (45 MHz) single beam guided blind bombing system, also known as Wotan. The RAF used the similar systems like GEE, GEE-H, Oboe and H2S also called the"Y". So the Y means all the stuff for the air navigation and blind bombing aid.
P.F.F. squadron - a Pathfinder Force squadron. The L.B and ORD are the types of the target indicator bomb also named the Christmass Trees.
T.I. - Target Indicator bomb
L.B - Long-Burning T.I.
ORD - Ordinary T.I
The L.B T.I comprised of 20 candles that were ignited when the bomb-case burst. The another 20 candles were igniting after 2 minutes and the next 20 final ones after 4 minutes. The cascading candles were burning for 7 minutes.
The ORD T.I. was a small-case bomb containing of 60 red, green or yellow candles. Each candle was burning for about 3 minutes and was ingnited at a set altitude. The bomb being fused to burst at either 10 000, 6000 or 3000 ft. The candles cascaded slowly to the ground where they continuing to burn in a patch of 100 yards diameter.
Regarding the 500MC ( TD inst ). It is the short marking of the 500lb bomb type MC. The "MC" may mean either the Medium Capacity or the Military Charge. In other words - a general-purpose bomb. The "TD inst" abbreviation stands for the " Time Delay - instant ". So no delaying for the bomb fuse.
The "bulls-eye" operation ...
I hope this helped.
P.F.F. squadron - a Pathfinder Force squadron. The L.B and ORD are the types of the target indicator bomb also named the Christmass Trees.
T.I. - Target Indicator bomb
L.B - Long-Burning T.I.
ORD - Ordinary T.I
The L.B T.I comprised of 20 candles that were ignited when the bomb-case burst. The another 20 candles were igniting after 2 minutes and the next 20 final ones after 4 minutes. The cascading candles were burning for 7 minutes.
The ORD T.I. was a small-case bomb containing of 60 red, green or yellow candles. Each candle was burning for about 3 minutes and was ingnited at a set altitude. The bomb being fused to burst at either 10 000, 6000 or 3000 ft. The candles cascaded slowly to the ground where they continuing to burn in a patch of 100 yards diameter.
Regarding the 500MC ( TD inst ). It is the short marking of the 500lb bomb type MC. The "MC" may mean either the Medium Capacity or the Military Charge. In other words - a general-purpose bomb. The "TD inst" abbreviation stands for the " Time Delay - instant ". So no delaying for the bomb fuse.
The "bulls-eye" operation ...
I hope this helped.
You may find this page informative;
View: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=694709062675893&set=pcb.694709702675829
Last edited by a moderator:
f for freddy
Airman
Hi Wurger and all
Great thread with some amazing detail on the Halifax and PFF work. Just interested in the role of RAF Defford and the H2S program. Read up on the subject last year for the project I was doing. Know Defford would fit out the prototype aircraft and carry out field modifications etc. However, once the system was sorted (I know, I use that word very loosely) did the Halifax come off the production lines with the H2S system fully installed or just the basic fitments done and the scanner and sets etc fitted separately?
Cheers
Steve A
Great thread with some amazing detail on the Halifax and PFF work. Just interested in the role of RAF Defford and the H2S program. Read up on the subject last year for the project I was doing. Know Defford would fit out the prototype aircraft and carry out field modifications etc. However, once the system was sorted (I know, I use that word very loosely) did the Halifax come off the production lines with the H2S system fully installed or just the basic fitments done and the scanner and sets etc fitted separately?
Cheers
Steve A
- Thread starter
- #20
Hi Wurger, Thanks again for your untiring digging. I live near the place LQ-M crashed. And because I know some of the local people who erected that small monument I have also got the book 'Six graves in the Village'. It was written after somebody found a little suitcase from the navigator's family containing a number of letters from relatives of the other crew members. So now I have some biographic data on the crew ad that gave me the idea to write a book about the bombing offensive, the pathfinders and 405 Sqn. Hence all my questions. You have been a great help.
