hartmanns victories

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 9, 2008

bf109 Emil said:
Hartmanns victories where all on the Russian front with a 109...before he became the leading ace in WW2, was he posted somewhere to hone his flying skills...ie conflict started in sept of '39, and russia on june 22 1941...I find it hard to believe he never faced a fighter pryor to Soviet/germany agression

No his first engagments were on the East Front.

He did not join the Luftwaffe until 1940 when he 19 years old and did not obtain his pilots license until August of 1941. From 14 October 1941 to February 1942 he attended Jagdfliegerschule-Vorschule 2 at Lachen-Speyerdorf. He attended Jagdfliegerschule 2 at Zerbst from February 1942 to July 1942 before being posted to Ergänzungruppe Ost at Gleiwitz for operational training, which he completed in October 1942.

His first operation unit was 7./JG 52 on the Eastern Front on 10 Oct. 1942, and he did not achieve his first victory until 5 Nov. 1942 by downling an Il-2.

In 1945 he did shoot down some P-51 (I believe it was an American one) as the West and East Fronts drew closer and closer.

He soon thereafter surrendured his unit to an American Armoured Unit who handed him over to the Russians.

Check out this site on Erich Hartmann:

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann

Hunter368 · Apr 9, 2008

I have it some place at home, where the Russians themselves were able to confirm I think it was about 280 of his kills.

So a great number of his kills were real and confirmed, as per the Russians themselves.

When the enemy confirms a high percentage of your kills........thats a good sign of his accuracy when making claims.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 9, 2008

I do believe he was well over 300. Unfortunatly his log book and everything have gone missing in Russia.

Hunter368 · Apr 9, 2008

True.

My main point was that Erich's claims were very close to being accurate. More then accurate as one could possibly expect under trying conditions. Many Westerns wanted to discount Erich's (any many German Aces) claims as not possible, but they were very real.

As per the Russians themselves, Erich was the real deal. No wild over claiming by him.

SoD Stitch · Apr 9, 2008

Hunter368 said:
True.

My main point was that Erich's claims were very close to being accurate. More then accurate as one could possibly expect under trying conditions. Many Westerns wanted to discount Erich's (any many German Aces) claims as not possible, but they were very real.

Yes, it was very hard for Allied aces to believe the seemingly wild claims of German pilots who had tallies in the hundreds, as opposed to most of the Allied aces who could count their victories on one or two hands. However, I believe the incredible German totals were a result of their pilot rotation system or, rather, lack thereof. Normally, an Allied pilot would be rotated home after a certain number of missions (don't remember the number, I think it was either 50 or 100); the Germans had no such luxury. German pilots had to fly until they were either killed, captured or incapacitated. So, of course, their totals would be high in comparison to Allied pilots when they're flying hundreds of missions, instead of a few dozen, as the Allied pilots did (Hartmann himself flew a total of 1,404 missions).

Hunter368 · Apr 9, 2008

100% agree Sod,

German pilots were not supermen compared to other pilots. They were very good, some of the things they did or were asked to do.....Allied pilots never had to do.

As a result many great pilots from Germany were killed during war, when their Allied counter parts were back relaxing safely behind lines (after they served their required missions were done). As you said German pilots did not have that luxary, they served until they died or were injured badly and could not fly (or the war ended).

Denniss · Apr 9, 2008

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I do believe he was well over 300. Unfortunatly his log book and everything have gone missing in Russia.

No, lost to the americans he surrendered to in 1945. The first log book was safe at home, it contained his victories to about number 150 (have the book about him not on hand to verify).

Ramirezzz · Apr 10, 2008

Hunter368 said:
I have it some place at home, where the Russians themselves were able to confirm I think it was about 280 of his kills.

So a great number of his kills were real and confirmed, as per the Russians themselves.

When the enemy confirms a high percentage of your kills........thats a good sign of his accuracy when making claims.

actually, slightly more than a third of his victories contained in the first part of his log book are confirmed by russian sources so far.

Hunter368 · Apr 10, 2008

My sources quote it at close to 280 kills confirmed by the Russians themselves.

I will look for it and see if I can dig it up for you.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 10, 2008

Denniss said:
No, lost to the americans he surrendered to in 1945. The first log book was safe at home, it contained his victories to about number 150 (have the book about him not on hand to verify).

Ah I thought it was lost in Russia. I knew he surrendured to the Americans who handed him over to the Russians.

SoD Stitch · Apr 10, 2008

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Ah I thought it was lost in Russia. I knew he surrendured to the Americans who handed him over to the Russians.

You may be half right; it was his second log book, with victories 150-352, that went missing, IIRC.

Hunter368 · Apr 10, 2008

That is correct, lost and never found.

Very sad.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 10, 2008

Exactly and I thought it was lost in Russia. I could be wrong though.

Schwarze_13 · Apr 10, 2008

For anyone who is interested - here is a rather lengthy debate over at the 'Ubizoo', from a while ago, regarding Hartmann's 'claims', official records, the "missing logbook" etc. IMO it was a very interesting discussion. However it also turned into a bit of a flame war!

Ramirezzz · Apr 12, 2008

Hunter368 said:
My sources quote it at close to 280 kills confirmed by the Russians themselves.

I will look for it and see if I can dig it up for you.

AFAIK the only research which was done in Russia was the one regarding the 150 claims contained in his first log book - so the highest number can't exeed 150 anyway

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 12, 2008

Well until proven otherwise Hartmans number of 352 stands. Why?

Because no one can claim otherwise without positive proof.

Hunter368 · Apr 12, 2008

Ramirezzz said:
AFAIK the only research which was done in Russia was the one regarding the 150 claims contained in his first log book - so the highest number can't exeed 150 anyway

Even if you are correct about the the number confirmed by the Russians (which I am not 100% you are correct I am still looking for my source), that does not in anyway, shape or form mean he did not shoot down more then 150 planes.

He did shoot down many many more then 150 planes during the war.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 12, 2008

I believe Hartman was put on trial when in Soviet captivity. I believed the Soviet authorities charged him with the destruction of over 300 Soviet aircraft. Just by those charges (and if someone could find the reference, I know this is mentioned in the book "The Black Knight of Germany") it shows that his captors knew the man shot down way more than 150 aircraft.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 12, 2008

Ya know I have to say, over the years I've read countless articles and forum discussions with regards to the validity of Hartman's record. While there are many who wish to diminish or detract from the 352 kills Hartman allegedly achieved, I see little or no attempt to do the same to those who were right behind him, Barkhorn and Rall. It's as if those who tend to question Harman's record fail to realize that there were others who were just as skilled and who may of achieved or even exceeded the mystical 352 mark had the war continued.

I think we must all consider besides the usual over-claiming and chaotic environment of the period, those behind Hartman were netting similar results. The fact remains that, based on the preponderance of the evidence Hartman did achieve a number of kills close or if not exact to the 352 recognized by many historians. I think if this was to be downplayed, why did the Soviets place a price on his head and actually charge him in the manner they did in the post war years if he at least came close to achieving the kills claimed?????

SoD Stitch · Apr 12, 2008

FLYBOYJ said:
I believe Hartman was put on trial when in Soviet captivity. I believed the Soviet authorities charged him with the destruction of over 300 Soviet aircraft. Just by those charges (and if someone could find the reference, I know this is mentioned in the book "The Black Knight of Germany") it shows that his captors knew the man shot down way more than 150 aircraft.

Just looked it up in The Blond Knight of Germany: supposedly (if Toliver Constable can be believed), the Soviets also use the figure of 352 aircraft shot down on the Russian front; when interrogated by the NKVD after the War, the dossier they had on Hartmann indicated he had shot down 352 a/c (p. 211).

hartmanns victories

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