FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Thanks!
And if any aviation writer can be trusted - it would be Toliver, may he rest in peace....
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Thanks!Just looked it up in The Blond Knight of Germany: supposedly (if Toliver Constable can be believed), the Soviets also use the figure of 352 aircraft shot down on the Russian front; when interrogated by the NKVD after the War, the dossier they had on Hartmann indicated he had shot down 352 a/c (p. 211).
I didn't say that - I meant the highest number of his victories confirmed by the russian sources can't exceed 150 because the lost part of his log book wasn't been used in the research - and the first part contained exactly 150 victories.
Even if you are correct about the the number confirmed by the Russians (which I am not 100% you are correct I am still looking for my source), that does not in anyway, shape or form mean he did not shoot down more then 150 planes.
I believe Hartman was put on trial when in Soviet captivity. I believed the Soviet authorities charged him with the destruction of over 300 Soviet aircraft. Just by those charges (and if someone could find the reference, I know this is mentioned in the book "The Black Knight of Germany") it shows that his captors knew the man shot down way more than 150 aircraft.
Ya know I have to say, over the years I've read countless articles and forum discussions with regards to the validity of Hartman's record. While there are many who wish to diminish or detract from the 352 kills Hartman allegedly achieved, I see little or no attempt to do the same to those who were right behind him, Barkhorn and Rall. It's as if those who tend to question Harman's record fail to realize that there were others who were just as skilled and who may of achieved or even exceeded the mystical 352 mark had the war continued.
I think we must all consider besides the usual over-claiming and chaotic environment of the period, those behind Hartman were netting similar results. The fact remains that, based on the preponderance of the evidence Hartman did achieve a number of kills close or if not exact to the 352 recognized by many historians. I think if this was to be downplayed, why did the Soviets place a price on his head and actually charge him in the manner they did in the post war years if he at least came close to achieving the kills claimed?????
this is an urban legend. That didn't happen.I think if this was to be downplayed, why did the Soviets place a price on his head
and actually charge him in the manner they did in the post war years if he at least came close to achieving the kills claimed?????
this is not quite true. He was accused in the destroying of the socialist properity (railcars and a factory - not airplanes!) and and killing of civilians. Any numbers of any destroyed aircrafts were simply not been mentioned in the final sentence, as he was never accused in the destroying of it.
The Toliver and Constable book is sometimes "incorrect" regarding some historical facts.
this is not quite true. He was accused in the destroying of the socialist properity (railcars and a factory - not airplanes!) and and killing of civilians. Any numbers of any destroyed aircrafts were simply not been mentioned in the final sentence, as he was never accused in the destroying of it.
Can you name some, I'm curious...The Toliver and Constable book is sometimes "incorrect" regarding some historical facts.
this is an urban legend. That didn't happen.
He became actually the common sentence for german war prisoners after war - 25 years of prison if my memory serves me correct. And NOT for killing the VVS aircrafts.
I'm not sure what exact research, how thorough, what quality, *what level of objectivity*, has been done assessing Hartmann's claims, but it wouldn't seem lack of his personal logbook would prevent investigating his later claims altogether. Those are also listed in OKL records. They give pilot, unit, approx location and altitude. Those records are only incomplete right at the end of the war, AFAIK. Anyway a researcher could sample a portion of his career, if it was really possible to tell which planes he'd shot down personally.I didn't say that - I meant the highest number of his victories confirmed by the russian sources can't exceed 150 because the lost part of his log book wasn't been used in the research
The following is from a 2002 Pravda Article about Hartmann...
...
It's amazing how this article mirrors the same information in Toliver's book, and from Pravda no less.......
Yes I agree, Hartmann tends to get special scrutiny because his credited score happens to be highest, there's no other special reason that I know of that question comes up *so* much more often with him than any number of 200+ and 100+ victory German aces. OTOH I think it's conceivable the 'true score' pecking order could reverse, since general German claiming was so much less accurate ca. 1944 than it had been in 1941, and Hartmann scored a lot of his victories then. But he'd have a big margin going in, so right quite likely would still be on top. And on the third handThe point here if even we diminish some of Hartmann's claims based on records of both sides, he will always be the target of controversy based on being the recognized "top ace" of WW2. ... I do suspect that if we were able to truly confirm the scores of Germany's "superaces" the end result might reveal fewer confirmed kills but the pecking order will more than likely come out the same, as Hartmann on top.
No but they had access to those who were held captive by the Soviets and others were on hand to substantiate their stories. Again, from what I know of Pravda (even in this day and age) I doubt the authors would of not researched sources prior to printing this article.This doesn't wonder me at all - the book was written in the late 60ies, where the autors - Colonels of the USAF! - certainly could not gain any access to russian archives.
All those claims were stated by Hartmann itself in his interview to Toliver and Constable. There's no another evidence.
"Under the Guns of the Red Baron" by Norman Franks (and others) is a book specifically about the claims and actual victims of Richtofen (his 'real' score was very close to the 80 officially credited, but that was a different situation). It has all the details from both sides, which is the key to any 'real' score assessment being meaningful. I don't know of any books like that about Hartmann or if it's really possible to do in the same detail with same certainty.
Joe
The Toliver's book was translated into Russian in 1997 or in 1998, so they probably just some of its passages into article - as I went through the russian original of the article ,most of them are completely copied from the book .And as I can see, the autors of this article are either professional historians nor they give any sources for their statements.
There's no evidence whatsoever ,that:
1) His head was rewarded (just like Rudel identical self-made claim)
2)he was nicknamed by soviet pilots (I don't know which historians the autor of the article refers to), although the known fact is that the soviet radio intelligence knew some of his callsigns
3) he was accused in destruction of the 345 or of any amount of planes
All those claims were stated by Hartmann itself in his interview to Toliver and Constable. There's no another evidence.
As for inaccuracy of the book itself, the whole "russian" part of it lacks it - I'll went trough it and just mention some of them when I have enough time. This doesn't wonder me at all - the book was written in the late 60ies, where the autors - Colonels of the USAF! - certainly could not gain any access to russian archives.
You're absolutely right, but I think to that time (early 90ies, I believe) the documents from "Abschussenteillist" of Luftwaffepersonalamt and KTG of the JG.52 weren't available for the russian researchers , so they used only the first part of the log book.I'm not sure what exact research, how thorough, what quality, *what level of objectivity*, has been done assessing Hartmann's claims, but it wouldn't seem lack of his personal logbook would prevent investigating his later claims altogether. Those are also listed in OKL records. They give pilot, unit, approx location and altitude.
Very true, that's the common problem! The 100% correct comparison regardging individual scores is impossibleThe usual problem is: how do you know which losses of the Soviets (or USAAF in a few cases) actually correspond to Hartmann's claims rather than another German pilot's claims? For example December 5 1944 there were 3 claims of La-5's at around the same time, 2 of them by Hartmanm. I don't know the Soviet results, but let's say for arguments sake 1 La-5 was really lost (it's possible 2, 3, 4 or 0 were lost, 1 is a just a what if to illustrate the issue). Is Hartmann's 'real score' that day automatically 1 or 0.33 (as I'd say) or do we try to somehow parse the details and say it was a 0 or 1 based on those details? How about if the La-5 'failed to return cause unknown' (as a big % of Soviet WWII losses were actually recorded)? The method and biases of the researcher can really affect results in that sort of analysis.
[...]
My view is it would be better first step to estimate the general claim accuracy of the air arm, or perhaps unit, with which the pilot flew, in that period of the war, and use this is as very general proxy for the likely range of accuracy of his claims.
No FLYBOYJ , I don't think so. In fact Hartmann was far away from being a nazi or a hater of all Russian whatsoever.How about his surviving crew chief and fellow airman - you think they would continue a Nazi propaganda ploy in the post war years just for the hell of it?
I believe as a researchers we have two options -The evidence is there, as JoeB stated earlier, its a matter of being able to
fully substantiate his actual score.
I do hold Toliver very credible.
As for planes and allegation - you can write to the Central Archive of FSB in Moscow and request a copy of his acts - its all in there.Do you have evidence that states otherwise? Or are you just going off what the commies have said?
As for planes and allegation - you can write to the Central Archive of FSB in Moscow and request a copy of his acts - its all in there.
As for reward and nickname - how can I prove what did never happen?
It was Toliver or Constable who had burden of proof!
I don't know of that specifically, I've casually looked at Saburo Sakai's claims v various Allied reported outcomes...again I think one might find though that for any two researchers there might be two methods of dealing with the ambiguities.But somehow american researchers could correct the scores of the japanese aces, it's interesting , how they managed to avoid this problem and which methods were been used by them.