Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat

[Elvis]

I think the comparison between Wildcat and Hurricane has been pretty much covered.
It's too complicated comparing the Hurricane to Oscar, Nate and Zero, so I'm just going to stick to the Oscar/Hayabusa, staying with the 'simple' theme.

Turn rate: HoHun? How much would I love to see a graph on this?
25lbs/sq ft for Hayabusa wingloading,
30 lbs/sq ft for Hurricane II.
5lbs/hp weight thrust for Hayabusa
6.4 lbs/hp for Hurricane.
Net result: better turn for Hayabusa, agrees with anecdotal info.

Wasn't it the Oscar that had individually controlable flaps (or were those dive brakes?) that could stuck out to "grab" the air and help the airplane turn sharper.
If I'm correct, I think that blows any advantage the Hurricane would've had in turning ability (not that it did, but if it did) right out the window.

Dive:
Hurricane can max dive to 450khm, but has slow dive acceleration.
Haybusa is said to dive only a bit faster than it's max speed, Hayabusa III had max speed of 365mph, so that seems like a fair figure. Love to see stat from a reliable source rather than an estimate though. Hayabusas were known to shed wings in high G pullouts.
Net result: Hurricane has better max dive speed, but poor/comparable initial dive.

Is that a typo, or did you mean to denote the Hurricane's dive speed in clicks?
...or is the typo with the Oscar, which is denoted in MPH.
Either way, something's amiss from your conclusion.
By my estimation, 450 clicks = 279mph.
That means that the Oscar's dive speed was almost 100 mph faster.

Don't mean to nit pick, but just a few anomolies I noticed reading an otherwise very informative post.



Elvis

 

[kool kitty89]

Both dive speeds would make sense in MPH as those sound about right. Though I'd have thought the Ki-43's speed to be a little higher, albeit still less than the Hurri... The Zero's max dive speed was 410 mph iirc, though its ailerons would freeze up above 300 mph. (and became increasingly less efective starting at ~240 mph)

 

[claidemore]

Yer right Elvis, that should be 450 mph for the Hurri dive speed. My bad.

And yes, the Oscar had 'butterly' maneuvering flaps. Check out any of the videos on Utube for the Ki-43, that Oscar is one agile little sob. At slow speeds it rolls faster than you can click a stopwatch to time it.

I always liked the looks of the Hayabusa/Oscar, but since doing a bit more reading on it, I'm impressed by its performance too. It could really climb, allied pilots report seeing it taking off way down below them, thinking the bombers they were escorting were safe, and before they knew it there were Oscars diving through em.

The first model, the Ki-43 Is were supposed to have 2 blade props, but I haven't seen a photograph yet of one that didn't have a 3 blade. I think the propoganda video shows a 3 blade prop too,(have to check that again) and my understanding is that it was made during the production run of the Ki-43I. I suspect the same situation existed there as in 1940 with the Hurricanes and Spitfires, constant speed props being put on before being sent to operational units or even in the field, but thats just a theory.

The leading Ki-43 pilot shot down one P38 and damaged another P38 enough to put him out of the fight, shot down two B24's, then rammed another B24 and downed it as well, all in one engagment. Four confirmed kills and one probable (I think JAAF credited him with the second P-38 ), so he was arguably an "Ace in a Day" with a two gun 'paper' airplane.

 

[Graeme]

The first model, the Ki-43 Is were supposed to have 2 blade props, but I haven't seen a photograph yet of one that didn't have a 3 blade.

Top one is the Ki-43-Ic. Bottom one is either Ia or Ib. From the Aircam Aviation series No.13...

 

[slaterat]

A lot of ground has been covered in this thread, a lot of catching up to do.

First on Hurricane dive speeds. Hurricane mk Is easily dived to 450-460 mph at 2850 rpm with a constant speed prop. Terence Kelly claims to have dived his tropicalized Hurri IIb to 590 mph. Douglas Bader claimed that in a long dive he could and did catch 109s.

Hurricane vs KI 43

In 1942 the Hurricane was up against the KI 43-1. The KI 43-1 best speed was 308mph at 13,600 ft, the tropicalized Hurr IIb 335 at 17,500 or 21,000ft depending on the source and or supercharger settings. The KI 43 was considered more manueovrable than a zero. At low speeds and low altitudes the KI 43 will out turn a Hurricane, the faster and higher you go the advantage goes to the Hurricane. The same goes for power loading. The Hurricane has a huge advantage in firepower and hardness. I haven't seen a climb chart for any KI 43 but inial climbrate would give the advantage to the KI-43 about 3,050 ft/ min vs 2850.

There's a clear pattern developing here if you're in a Hurricane you want to start out at 20,000 ft and 300 mph a KI-43 isn't going to have too many options up there, he can't dive away , he cant run away. Lets turn the tables though and start the fight at 10,000 ft and co e. The speed of these planes is very close at this level the Ki-43 holds the turn and climb cards. The Hurris only option is to head for the deck hoping his armour protects him until he builds up enough speed to extend and/or out manueorvre the KI 43.

Unfortunately for the RAF in early 1942 S.E. Asia, with little or no ews, the defenders are almost always still climbing when the fighting begins. This is verified in "Bloody Shambles". Fight after fight the RAF Hurricanes are outnumbered and still climbing when jumped.Their airfields had very little and ineffective aaa.

Slaterat

 

[slaterat]

Yes that is a very cool video of the KI-43 on u tube. I've always thought that the zero was an ugly plane but that the Oscar was a very clean and sleek design. I've got a 1/72 Hasegawa model of one hanging in my basement.

In reguards to the airframe, the Hurricane would be far tougher than the
F4F or the p 40. There are several reasons for this.

The F4F, P40 and most WW II planes are of stressed skin construction, meaning that the skin of the aircraft is part of the load bearing structure of the aircraft. Any damage to the skin brings a resultant loss in the structural integrity of the airframe. These airframes are vunerable to machine guns ripping the skin or the overpressure from cannon shells rupturing the skin. The Hurricane is based on an older English method of construction. Although tubular steel airframes had been used since WW I, most of these used low quality mild steel that was welded together. This resulted in a heavy airframe that wasn't really that strong. Hawkers solution to the problem was to use lightweight high quality steel alloys held together with mechanical fastners.
This type of structure is very resistant to damage especially from over pressure but also from mg fire. It was also much more easily repaired. The wing is a two spar structure running clean through the fuselage. The spars are also made of steel , the two in the center section being made of heat treated spring steel using Hawkers welll known dumbell spar. The only stressed skin construction on the Hurricane was from the gun bays outward to the wing tips. Keep in mind the Hurricanes wings are also 18 inches thick at the gun bays adding to this immense strength. For its size the Hurricane is relatively light , the main drawback of this type of construction is that it leads to a bulkier less efficient airframe.

Slaterat

 

[kool kitty89]

The Hurricane Mk.I (and Maybe IIA) had fabric covered wings! And all Hurricanes had a fabric skinned rear fusalage iirc.

Also nearing 500 mph air compressing in the pilot tube caused massive overreadings of airspeed on most airspeed indicators of the era. The Hurricane, P-40, P-39, and similar a/c topped out between 450-500 mph for the safe limit for structural and controll limitations. (also, the P-38 was strong enough to dive faster but the controll problems limited pilots from doing this safely and could only recover from a 500+ mph dive with the recovery flaps)

Another thing: I'm not sure but I think the P-40 had better engine armor than the Hurricane (the Allison and Merlin engines themselves should be able to take similar damage) and the Merlins used in the BoB also used 100% glycol coolant (prestone) which was quite flamable, particularly at engine temperatures, so engine/radiator fires could be big problems, fast! This wasn't a problem for later merlins using 70/30 water/coolant mix which the V-1710 also used which was realitively non flamable and more efficient at cooling. (better heat capacity)


And here's a good example of a 90 degree deflection shot:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XJGsbhCgc


I don't see the Zero as ugly though, The Ki 43-II and A6M-2 were fairly similar looking a/c and the planform of the Ki 43 is a bit sleeker with the more tapered fusalage and the Oscar's canopy was a bit nicer (smaller and less framing) but I wouldn't say the Zero was ugly.

 

[slaterat]

Only the first 450 or so Hurricanes had fabric covered wings. Production was switched over half way through the second batch of 300. Thats out of nearly 15,000.

Slaterat

 

[claidemore]

Only the first 450 or so Hurricanes had fabric covered wings. Production was switched over half way through the second batch of 300. Thats out of nearly 15,000.

Slaterat

I think metal skinned wings on Hurricanes were appearing in France in 1940 well before BoB. I seem to remember some of the 262 Squadron pilots mentioning them.

They dress up Harvards to look like Zeros in movies, and I don't see people raving about how pretty Harvards are! (joking)

I know two sisters, very similar features, almost like twins, but one is considered very pretty, the other one not. The slightest difference in proportions or angles makes a world of difference in human perception of beauty. Paint helps too, on planes and sisters.

Claidemore

 

[kool kitty89]

So the late Mk.I had metal wings and the Mk.IIA would have had the same 8x gun all-metal wing?


And of course beauty is in the eye of the heholder, I pesonally like the looks of the P-47 over the P-51 (and the 190-A over the 190-D), and lets not get into Lanc's obsession over the looks of the Lancaster and French bombers...

Hoever I like the looks of the Ki 43 more too, but the Zero is certainly not UGLY...

 

[slaterat]

Correct. There were less than 5000 mk 1s, so thats about the first 10 % of mk Is were fabric covered wings. AFAIK there's only 1 left in the world with thse early wings.

The front armour on the Hurricane was primarily to protect the pilot although the armour plate behind the spinner would add some protection for the engine. Large scale protection for the engine and rad was only added to the MK II D and MK IV 380 and 350lbs each.

Slaterat.

 

[Graeme]

So the late Mk.I had metal wings and the Mk.IIA would have had the same 8x gun all-metal wing?

Hurricane production commenced with Serial No. L1547. It was in 1939 that a late production IA, Serial No. N2423, incorporated the metal-skin wings on the production line.

It was only the "first 100 or so" of the IIA that had the 8-gun arrangement...

 

[slaterat]

All IIa s had 8 gun wings
IIb 12 gun wing
IIc 4 x 20mm
Later in the Desert and in SE Asia many IIbs and IIcs had their armament reduced to 8x303 and 2x20mm, in the interest of increased performance.

Slaterat

 

[slaterat]

About 4711 Hurricanes were IIcs, the most produced model

Slaterat

 

[Graeme]

All IIa s had 8 gun wings
IIb 12 gun wing
IIc 4 x 20mm
Later in the Desert and in SE Asia many IIbs and IIcs had their armament reduced to 8x303 and 2x20mm, in the interest of increased performance.

Slaterat

Ahh..thanks for the correction Slaterat. Makes sense as further on, the article describes the IIC as "introducing" cannon. Certainly a prolific number of variants for the Hurricane.

 

[kool kitty89]

Here's an interesting interview of a Japanese pilot on the Ki 43 in 1991:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-eBmnpCO18 (Note: he refers to heavy machine guns of later Ki 43's and the .50 cal US guns as "cannons") Also the "type 2 fighter" should refer to the Ki 44.

Very interesting account, and much criticism of the a/c though he does mention the graseful "sleek lines" of the a/c.

Is this the youtube video of the Ki 43 that you were talking about?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7FYVEWNNrQ

That certainly shows the Ki 43's roll performance! If that's real time it would be over 180 degrees per second. (even more than the Fw 190A rolling with torq!)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Oscar was probably the most maneuverable monoplane all metal fighter of WW2. Like the Zero, no armor plating made it burn pretty easily. It featured a butterfly split flap that made it turn on a dime.

 

[kool kitty89]

Also there's the Hayabusa song:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS12isLjS5w

 

[kool kitty89]

I thought the Ki 43 had a small armor plate behind the pilot and self-sealing tanks (albeit even more inadequate than the B-339E, F2A-3, or even P-43's).

This being before the later model A6Ms were made which added armor.

But as seen in the interview I posted even with more armor the structure of the plane was frail and easily damaged. (please do watch it it's quite interesting) He also notes that it was hard for the Ki 43 to pursue enemies due to low speed and that it was slower than the Hurricane. Along with this he says that it was as bad as the Ki-27 (type-1 Fighter) with vibrations at high speeds. (probably ~330+ mph)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I thought the Ki 43 had a small armor plate behind the pilot and self-sealing tanks

As far as I know it had neither - you might be confusing the armor plate behind the pilot for a "turtleback" - a piece of structure that prevented the pilot from being crushed it the aircraft flipped over.