Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat
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- #322
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I'm aware this doesn't indicate the model of the Wildcat that would be up to some one in the know on the USN but the Hurris were Mk XII' I'm not taking this as gospel for type vs type but in this case it seems the Hurri came out on top
"Along with submarine patrols, 128 Squadron carried out a number of exercises with the Army and Navy in addition to our own squadron exercises On 6 July 1943, the USS Wasp an American aircraft carrier arrived in St Johns harbour after completing a tour of duty against the Japanese in the Pacific theatre . The Wasp carried a full complement of Grumman Wildcat fighters That evening, many of the Wildcat pilots arrived at our Mess in Torbay We heard some pretty hairy stories of events that some a them had experienced an the Pacific .After a few rounds from the bar, a discussion developed regarding the merits of the Wildcats versus the Humcane IT continued until the Americans issued a challenge. They would have four Wildcats at Torbay the following morning The tactics were sample Four pairs, each consisting a.
Wildcat and a Hurricane would meet at an agreed upon altitude .
in each of the four quadrants of the sky, North west, south and east a of the airport They would meet. fly in formation for a minute or two , then break up and approach each other head on From then on it was a straight dogfight, with each pilot trying to get on the other fellows tail. Flight Commanders were not allowed to fly on either side We were part of the large audience assembled on the ground to see the show Everythmg went according to plan. All the aircraft met, flew in formation for a minute or two, and then began dogfiglmng In a couple of minutes there were four Hurricane - the tails of four Wildcats, and they stayed there, to great applause and shouts from the audience below.
After landing, everyone adjourned to the hangar to hash out . the situation The Amencans seemed completely nonplused by turn of events They could not understand how things could turned out the way they had It must have been some kind of aberrartion that could never happen again, so they issued a challenge for the following afternoon this tame, they announced flight Commanders could fly, so I decided to get in on the fun in Humcane 5485 That afternoon the two readiness aircraft, equipped with depth charges. were sitting on the tarmac Butch Washburn and Gibby Gibbs were the readiness pilots that day and Butch said to me, you know Bill, I thank we can take on these buggers with those readiness aircraft ''. "why not i replied We lined up a fourth pilot and the exercise was carried out all over again with four Hurricanes on the tails of four 'Wildcats once again Butch Washburn was so keen rhat he stayed on the 'Wildcat's tail; until it landed on the runway. The Americans were forced to admit that the Hurricane was a better aircraft. even when it was ladened down with depth charges."
"Along with submarine patrols, 128 Squadron carried out a number of exercises with the Army and Navy in addition to our own squadron exercises On 6 July 1943, the USS Wasp an American aircraft carrier arrived in St Johns harbour after completing a tour of duty against the Japanese in the Pacific theatre . The Wasp carried a full complement of Grumman Wildcat fighters That evening, many of the Wildcat pilots arrived at our Mess in Torbay We heard some pretty hairy stories of events that some a them had experienced an the Pacific .After a few rounds from the bar, a discussion developed regarding the merits of the Wildcats versus the Humcane IT continued until the Americans issued a challenge. They would have four Wildcats at Torbay the following morning The tactics were sample Four pairs, each consisting a.
Wildcat and a Hurricane would meet at an agreed upon altitude .
in each of the four quadrants of the sky, North west, south and east a of the airport They would meet. fly in formation for a minute or two , then break up and approach each other head on From then on it was a straight dogfight, with each pilot trying to get on the other fellows tail. Flight Commanders were not allowed to fly on either side We were part of the large audience assembled on the ground to see the show Everythmg went according to plan. All the aircraft met, flew in formation for a minute or two, and then began dogfiglmng In a couple of minutes there were four Hurricane - the tails of four Wildcats, and they stayed there, to great applause and shouts from the audience below.
After landing, everyone adjourned to the hangar to hash out . the situation The Amencans seemed completely nonplused by turn of events They could not understand how things could turned out the way they had It must have been some kind of aberrartion that could never happen again, so they issued a challenge for the following afternoon this tame, they announced flight Commanders could fly, so I decided to get in on the fun in Humcane 5485 That afternoon the two readiness aircraft, equipped with depth charges. were sitting on the tarmac Butch Washburn and Gibby Gibbs were the readiness pilots that day and Butch said to me, you know Bill, I thank we can take on these buggers with those readiness aircraft ''. "why not i replied We lined up a fourth pilot and the exercise was carried out all over again with four Hurricanes on the tails of four 'Wildcats once again Butch Washburn was so keen rhat he stayed on the 'Wildcat's tail; until it landed on the runway. The Americans were forced to admit that the Hurricane was a better aircraft. even when it was ladened down with depth charges."
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- #324
Freebird
Master Sergeant
What were the Japanese non-fighter losses vs Hurricanes?
In deference to the Thach quote, I would submit for those leaning towards more bullets and fewer guns vs more guns with fewer bullets, if that were the case no amount of bullets will be enough if the pilot cannot hit his target. The trade off being the number of bullets (i.e. length of time pressing the trigger) for the amount of higher burst damage with more bullets. Given that pilots often only had a few seconds to fire with the target in his sights, a high burst damage would be preferable in my opinion. The M2 .50 cal. fired 500 rounds per minute. With only 4 guns, one could only get 200 rounds on target in a 6 second burst while with 6 guns, one could get 300 rounds on target - an improvement of 50%. If a pilot were to only get one snapshot at shooting down a plane, it would be more perferable to fire the maximum number of bullets.
fubar57
General
If you don't know how to lead an aircraft or know when to pull the trigger at the correct time, having 100 guns on the aircraft would still be of no use
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Read the above post - nuff said
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
USS Wasp (CV-7) was sunk in the Pacific on 15 September 1942.
USS Wasp (CV-18) was commissioned on 24 November 1943.
It would have been a little difficult for either of them to be at St Johns in July 1943.
Not to mention that the first incarnation of 128 Squadron, the one that flew Hurricanes, was disbanded in March 1943 and was not re-established until December 1944 and that 128 operated Mosquitos. And if the location of this contest was near St Johns, as in Newfoundland, I believe that one might find that Hurricane flying 128 Squadron was formed and spent its service in Sierra Leone . . . west Africa, last time I looked, and operated there from 7 October 1941 to its disbandment on 8 March 1943.
So, carriers, neither of which could not have been in St Johns in July 1943 and an RAF squadron operating out of Sierra Leone, no where near St Johns, that had disbanded four months before the great contest.
For what it is worth.
USS Wasp (CV-18) was commissioned on 24 November 1943.
It would have been a little difficult for either of them to be at St Johns in July 1943.
Not to mention that the first incarnation of 128 Squadron, the one that flew Hurricanes, was disbanded in March 1943 and was not re-established until December 1944 and that 128 operated Mosquitos. And if the location of this contest was near St Johns, as in Newfoundland, I believe that one might find that Hurricane flying 128 Squadron was formed and spent its service in Sierra Leone . . . west Africa, last time I looked, and operated there from 7 October 1941 to its disbandment on 8 March 1943.
So, carriers, neither of which could not have been in St Johns in July 1943 and an RAF squadron operating out of Sierra Leone, no where near St Johns, that had disbanded four months before the great contest.
For what it is worth.
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Kevin J
Banned
Perhaps the answer to the number of guns is the Russian solution, group area fighter tactics. Two skilled shooters with three stacked pairs in support. Even the Airacobra is a winner.
It's not often you hear the words "Airacobra" and "winner" together in the same sentence for air combat...
buffnut453
Captain
Popcorn's ready. You may begin. 
Kevin J
Banned
Copied this straight from wikipedia "The La-5 was found to have a top speed and acceleration at low altitude that were comparable to Luftwaffe fighters. The La-5FN possessed a slightly higher roll rate than the Bf-109. However, the Bf-109 was slightly faster and had the advantage of a higher rate of climb and better turn rate.[2] The La-5FN had a slightly better climb rate and smaller turn radius than the Fw 190A-8. However, the Fw 190A-8 was faster at all altitudes and had significantly better dive performance and a superior roll-rate. " So there we go, the Soviet's other war winner. Its amazing what team work can do. Ah, that reminds me of the Thach Weave and the Wildcat.
Stick around.
Kevin J
Banned
IIRC victories to losses ratio over New Guinea for the Airacobra was 1:1 and for the Warhawk 1.6:1, which is very similar to the Hurricane 1.1:1 and Spitfire 1.7:1 during the BoB. In both cases the fighter with the better altitude capability did better.
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 890
- Feb 16, 2013
Just read this thread for the first time. Some funny questions too far into history to address now. Like the "RAF should have used .50's in the BoB". However, in regards to the "which was tougher" question, did the F4F not enter combat without pilot protection or self sealing tanks? I was under the impression they were rush fitted in early 1942.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
There were kits available to upgrade F4F-3s with pilot armor and self sealing tanks. VF-42, headed to points west from Norfolk in mid December 1941 installed the sealers at sea before reaching the Panama Canal; pilot armor was picked up and installed at San Diego in early January. I am not aware of any F4F-3 squadron that entered combat without the upgrade.
F4F-4s came with these niceties straight from Grumman.
F4F-4s came with these niceties straight from Grumman.
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
VMF-211 went to Wake Island early December '41 with new F4F-3s with no armor, only one with self sealing tanks (borrowed from VF-6), and new reflector sights (also from VF-6).
VF-6 did not have factory armor installed until returning from the Marshall Islands raid launched 2 Feb 1942. They - VF-6 - were also flying the slightly less capable F4F-3A. Early self sealing tanks had a bad habit of disintegrating in the tropical heat and were suspected in a number of take off ditchings.
VF-6 did not have factory armor installed until returning from the Marshall Islands raid launched 2 Feb 1942. They - VF-6 - were also flying the slightly less capable F4F-3A. Early self sealing tanks had a bad habit of disintegrating in the tropical heat and were suspected in a number of take off ditchings.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Thanks for the correction.
The problem with the self sealing tanks was in the lot received by VF-42, aromatics in the fuel cause the liners to disintegrate and clog fuel lines at the most inopportune moments. The squadron lost a couple of planes falling out of the sky with dead engines. Fortunately no one was lost. One pilot managed to bring a engine faltering plane back aboard where the true culprit was discovered. An emergency shipment via PB2Y to Tongatabu of new "improved" liners solved the problem.
The problem with the self sealing tanks was in the lot received by VF-42, aromatics in the fuel cause the liners to disintegrate and clog fuel lines at the most inopportune moments. The squadron lost a couple of planes falling out of the sky with dead engines. Fortunately no one was lost. One pilot managed to bring a engine faltering plane back aboard where the true culprit was discovered. An emergency shipment via PB2Y to Tongatabu of new "improved" liners solved the problem.
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