Hawker Hurricane vs Morane-Saulnier M.S.406

Jenisch · Jul 31, 2013

Messerschmitt Bf 109 Variants-1

According to this source, there were 150 Bf 109s getting out of the production line each month by early 1940. But even if the 109 production reached the same 300 per month as the D.520 was being produced by mid-1940, it was just a question of time for the French phase out the Morane (of course, if France survived), just like the British done with the Hurricane for the Spit.

pattle · Jul 31, 2013

I have always wondered where the loyalty of the French colonial forces under Vichy control laid, from what I can gather it was divided. Even though they put up a fight on a good number of occasions I wonder if this was out of pride or out of concern with what the Germans may do in the mother country if they did not comply. I am surprised that the Vichy French were able to re-supply Syria with aircraft during 1941, but this is all another subject. As it sounds like there was no clash between Hurricanes and Moranes in the Middle East, I wonder if there were any in North Africa?

Timppa · Aug 1, 2013

parsifal said:
Firepower - Morane has 1 x 20mm (60 rounds) plus 2 x 7.5mm mgs
Hurricane 8 x 0.303in mg
For a poorer trained pilot Id give a slight edge to the Hurricane
Speed
MS406 303mph at 16400 feet
Hurricane Mk I 317mph @ 16500 feet
Best Rate Of Climb
Morane: 2560 ft/min (not sure if this is "best" though)
Hurricane: 2965 feet per minute at 17500 feet
Neither had armour or S/S tanks. Both used quite antiquated construction methods.
I would give a very slight edge to the Hurricane

Average Finnish Morane was about 430 km/h ( 267 mph).
It was a maintenance nightmare for the ground crews, possibly even worse than the Fiat G-50.
Pneumatic systems failures, hydraulic systems failures, cannon that could fire only a few rounds before it jammed..wait the list is too long.

parsifal · Aug 1, 2013

Hi timppa

what was the spare parts situation like though. Maybe the problem was logistical rather than technical. Moranes did okay (but not outstanding) in France, and ive not read they suffered low servicieability rates there.

Their combat performance was pretty mediocre in France. From memory I recall a victory rate of only about 90 or so aircraft for 197 lost, or thereabouts

Mangrove · Aug 10, 2013

Finnish Air Force operated Hurricane Mk. I, MS-406/410 and improved MS-406/410s equipped with more powerful Soviet Klimov M-103 (so called "Mörkö Morane"). The Finnish Morane-Saulniers also fought against the Soviet Hurricane Mk. II and shot down a few.

Hans Wind on the Hurricane (Mk. II):

The Hurricane and Spitfire [i.e. Yak-9] are slow and clumsy fighters at low altitudes. They seek dogfights at high altitudes (over 5,000 m.) where their characteristics are extremely good. Used these days as night-fighters by the enemy. The Spitfire is faster than the Hurricane.

The CO of the Lentolaivue 12 on the Finnish Hurricane Mk. I, letter dated 3 November 1942. Translation according (by yours truly) from the Finnish original at the National Archive:

According to my experience, there are two factors that make the Hurricane rather ineffective fighter, despite its high maximum velocity (c. 535 km/h). The most decisive factor is that of caliber of the armament (7.7 mm). Despite the eight machine guns, the firepower of the plane is weak and it would require larger caliber weaponry. Small amount of ammunition (300 rounds per gun) makes things even worse. The second factor is the climbing rate; it takes 9 minutes to climb to 5000 meters and c. 6½ minutes to 4000 meters. [...]

The Hurricane is not an agile fighter. When flying in low speed, below 200 mph, the plane is rather good, but the maneuverability decreases quickly when the speed increases. [...]

Generally the MS-406 was well liked plane among the Finnish pilots, especially when the 20 mm cannon worked and did not jam.

Greyman · Aug 15, 2013

pattle said:
Didn't the Hurricane and MS406 face each other over Syria 1941? I have a feeling that they did but then the Allied invasion of Vichy held Syria was such a brief affair that perhaps nothing can be learnt from it.

Just caught a tidbit about this; Hurricanes were part of the Allied force in the Syrian campaign, and they reportedly fared well against the Vichy D.520s and MS.406s (while the Fulmars had a lot of trouble)

H_K · Aug 15, 2013

I'm not sure the performance of the Vichy French is a good benchmark.

I forget the source, but I remember reading that the pilots weren't allowed to fly much (fuel, spares or armistice restrictions?). And presumably the best pilots were in Stalags?

Edit: Found a source that claims that Vichy pilots flew 4 hours per month (!) in 1941, and even less in 1942. Versus 25 hours in peacetime and 30 hours in 1940. It also mentions issues with tired engines and increased drag on older airframes. http://flashbackplanes.blogspot.fr/2012/05/dewoitine-d520-part-5-again-about.html

Hawker Hurricane vs Morane-Saulnier M.S.406

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Jenisch

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pattle

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Timppa

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parsifal

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Mangrove

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Greyman

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H_K

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