He.177 combat history

[GregP]

Thanks, Denniss. My data was from some source I saw maybe 15 years ago and I'm sure your data are better.

The losses add up to 140 He 177 A-1 comprising 126 He 177 A-1, 10 He 177 A-1*, 1 He 177 A-01 and 3 He 177 A-1". I am assuming the *, ", and 01 were He 177 A-1 airframes. Also reported as lost are 32 other types including an A-02, -03, A-4, A-5, A-6, A-7, A-8, A-9, A-10, A-11,A-12, A-13, A-14, A-15, A-16, A-17, A-18, A-19, and A-20 all with 1 loss each, for 19 more, adding up to 1,154 units if the losses are to be believed.

 

[Milosh]

That 41% is about the same (40%) as for American heavy bomber losses.

 

[GregP]

There were 12,731 B-17s built. According to Ray Wagoner's "American Combat Planes," we lost 4,688 of them, or 36.8%. So, the loss rates were close as you say.

We built 18482 B-24s and lost 3626. or 19.6%. Combined the rate is 26.6%.

If you add the B-29, the combined loss rate for our heavy / super heavy is 24.8%.

 

[Milosh]

There were 12,731 B-17s built. According to Ray Wagoner's "American Combat Planes," we lost 4,688 of them, or 36.8%. So, the loss rates were close as you say.

We built 18482 B-24s and lost 3626. or 19.6%. Combined the rate is 26.6%.

If you add the B-29, the combined loss rate for our heavy / super heavy is 24.8%.

The USAAF states that 12007 heavy bombers were lost in WW2.

The B-29 was classed as a very heavy bomber.

 

[GregP]

Hi Milosh,

Ray Wagoner is an old reference. I'm OK with your number, I just don't have a reference for it. I have no agenda here and do not claim Ray is right. It's just the numbers I have at this time from an old source. Perhaps his numbers were for ETO alone or something like that. Sometimes the old (1950s / 1960s) authors used to do that and not specify it in the notes ... and you only found out later. As i happens, I've been looking at loss figures, but mostly for fighters. I haven't updated my bomber numbers for a few years.

 

[stona]

The percentage of He 177s lost must be related to the number of sorties flown to have any meaning.

There were never many He 177s operational and they never flew operations at the intensity of the Allied bombing forces in the ETO. An awful lot of He 177 losses listed in Smith and Creek seem to be non operational crashes for various technical and/or mechanical reasons.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GregP]

I am aware of the relationship between sorties and losses, but have no data whatsoever on He 177 sorties flown.

I was attempting to look at the data posted above only since it is the best He 177 data I have seen yet.

Sometimes, good data is hard to find, especially if you don't read German.

 

[GrauGeist]

Greg, have you factored in the He177's losses due to Allied bombing and/or strafing attacks?

I also see that several of the prototypes were destroyed by retreating Luftwaffe forces during the tail end of the war, like these, for example:
V101 (NN+QQ)
V103 (KM+TT)
V104 (KM+TE)

 

[GregP]

Hi Graugeist,

The numbers I posted above were from the data posted earlier in this thread. NN+QQ is there as "scrapped." I suppose destroying one might be called scrapping it.

KM+TT and KM+TE do not show up.

I bet Denniss has all the data somewhere. He usually checks in when we talk German production or losses.

 

[GrauGeist]

Going by memory, V101 (NN+QQ) was destroyed at Eger, I believe in April '45 as U.S. forces approached.

But I agree, Denniss would most likely have better details.

Regarding KM+TT and KM+TE, their WkNmrs are as follows:
KM+TT (V103) - WkNmr 550036
KM+TE (V104) - WkNmr 550055

Perhaps that might help?

 

[GregP]

Thanks!

 

[fubar57]

Dave, in "Heinkel 177, 277, 274" by Manfred Griehl & Joachim Dressel, 550036 was "scrapped" and was coded KM+TL. 550055 fate is unknown and was coded KM+UE. Don't know how accurate the book is

 

[GrauGeist]

Geo, add another 0 in your WkNmrs

The two I mentioned: 550036 and 550055 were prototypes being developed for the intended "B" series.

And my list is also from Manfred Griehl's research

 

[fubar57]

Ooops, 0s added...

 

[GrauGeist]

That's certainly interesting...what do they have for the WkNmrs for V103 and V104?

 

[GrauGeist]

ahh...I see what happened, I just went and double-checked the list and here's what happened:
V103 KM+TT (WkNmr 550036) was an He177A-5 rebuilt as an He177B-5, fitted with a an HL131 Vtail turret.
V104 KM+TE (WkNmr 550055) was an He177A-5 rebuilt as an He177B-5, pattern aircraft for the series.

The other He177 destroyed by retreating Luftwaffe forces, as I mentioned earlier, V101, was an A-3 rebuilt as a B-5, fitted with 4 separate engines.

In this short list of B-5 conversions, one other: GA+QQ (WkNmr 0100 0023) was a rebuilt A-0 series fitted with a twin fin/rudder assembly, but it was destroyed in a collision on 22 April 1944.

 

[GregP]

Good info, guys. Thanks again.

 

[Denniss]

Also reported as lost are 32 other types including an A-02, -03, A-4, A-5, A-6, A-7, A-8, A-9, A-10, A-11,A-12, A-13, A-14, A-15, A-16, A-17, A-18, A-19, and A-20 all with 1 loss each,

This all smells like A-0 albeit with incorrect numbering (missing leading zero, correct would be A-05, A-020, etc)

 

[GregP]

Hi Denniss,

Could be. I might have shortened them up myself since, to me, 05 = 5. It's just the data that were posted a few pages back. I don't know where it came from. I'll go back and check.

Thanks for the heads up, I appreciate it.

If you or anyone else has a better list of He 177 fates, it would be appreciated if you would share it. I've always liked the He 177 or, to be more correct, the He 274 / 277, 4-engine aircraft. The 2-propeller version might have been fine if the engines had not been the weak links, but the 4-engine unit could easily have been fielded from the start, giving Germany a good, reliable strategic heavy bomber. The basic design seem sound and when everything worked, it carried out its missions easily.

 

[fubar57]

Do you have this book Greg?