He219B-2 colours

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by ktank, Jun 3, 2014.

  1. ktank

    ktank New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Casual hobby shop assistant
    Location:
    Canberra
    I'm planning to build Dragon's kit of the He219B which I got cheap at a swap meet. Problem is that information on the He219B is like rocking horse do-do...:cry:

    From what I gather, while the kit is called an He219B-1 (lengthened fuselage and wings) it's actually an He219B-2 (standard length fuselage with lengthened wings).

    The best information I've been able to come across is on Hyperscale's forums (Plane Talking - HyperScale's Aircraft Scale Model Discussion Forum: Heinkel 219B

    "The B2 prototype, inteded as a specific Mosquito chaser, was also build. It was build using a fuselage of a He 219 A5 with the enlarged wings of a B1, Armour and ventral tray were deleted. The DB603A engines were fitted with a TK13 turbo-supercharger each. The first prototype, the KJ+BB, featured an armament of 2 x MG151 in the wing roots and 2 x MK108 schräge Musik. A handful of the B2 series a/c were produced, delivered and employed in action, some of them even fitted with DB603L engines. "

    But another respondent reckons there's no record of the B-2 seeing action.

    So.... does anyone have any further information on whether the He219B-2 saw action, and in particular camo and markings for any of them. If nothing else, I'd appreciate advice on the prototype KJ+BB.

    Thanks!
     
  2. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And there was me thinking that the A-6 was the lightened Mosquito hunter. It was an A-2 with engine and ammunition armour removed, no oblique weapons and flame dampers and radar antennae removed.

    The B-2 was to be a high altitude night fighter with Jumo 222 exhaust turbocharged engines. What's the evidence that a handful of B-2 series aircraft were produced?

    Now I'm confused too

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  3. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    11,151
    Likes Received:
    1,052
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Heavy Equipment Operator
    Location:
    Jungles of Canada
    #3 fubar57, Jun 3, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
    Get yourself a translator and your laughing...
    Capture.JPG

    ...I have three books, in German, I'll look through them.

    Geo

    EDIT: sorry, couldn't even find a line diagram of a B-2
     
  4. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    25,204
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary
    Rough translation:

    B-2 was a high altitude version of B-1
    - something about the A-6 I can't make out-
    KJ+BB was stationed fro 3 weeks at Vienna for trials
    Aircraft had twin DB603L Power Plants
    On 25 May 1944, teh RLM tried to stop production but further trials continued at Rechlin, etc...

    I'm a bit pressed for time now but can check some references I have tonight.
     
  5. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,796
    Likes Received:
    1,559
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #5 Wurger, Jun 3, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
    It seems that the high altitude B-2 was of B-1 series and was a lightened/ unweighted as the A-6 variant was.
     
  6. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    25,204
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary
    Thanks Wojtek. I grew up with German but have lost a lot of it.
     
  7. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    15,222
    Likes Received:
    2,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Public Safety Automotive Technician
    Location:
    Redding, California
    Home Page:
    He219s were assigned to I./NJG 1, II./NJG 1, IV./NJG 1, III./NJG 5, NJGr 10 and Nachtjagdstaffel "Norwegen". Not sure of how many of the B-2 were assigned to which group.
     
  8. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,093
    Likes Received:
    657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    The only things I can find in Roland Remp's Heinkel HE 219 An Illustrated History of Germany's Premier Nightfighter are:

    Page 101: "The B-2 high altitude night fighter powered by the Jumo 222 with exhaust-driven turbo supercharger."
    Page 146: "Type A-7/R3 was preproduction series for B-1 version, prototype aircraft V27" but does not mention the B-2 as having been built.

    It lists the A-6 as the A-2 without armor and there is an A-7/R6 that is listed as an improved A-2 prototype aircraft V18 that was also equipped with Jumo 222 engines (the only one listed in fact).

    No line drawings either.
     
  9. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    25,204
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary
    I have no more on this bird either and doubt very much it entered service. Colours are a toss up but if I had to guess, I'd say overall RLM 76.
     
  10. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All the recorded operational losses are for A series aircraft.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  11. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,796
    Likes Received:
    1,559
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    I agree with Steve. There is no proof that there were more B-2 planes than the one prototype. The scan with the brief note in the German above doesn't confirm it as well. Also neither the AJ-Press book Monografie Lotnicze no.99 nor the Kagero publications for the Uhu don't mention that too.
     
  12. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    25,204
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary
  13. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    15,222
    Likes Received:
    2,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Public Safety Automotive Technician
    Location:
    Redding, California
    Home Page:
    #13 GrauGeist, Jun 4, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
    Perhaps I should clarify my comment.

    Along with production types, there were several "prototypes" (pre-production) types that were assigned to those units mentioned.

    As far as "B" types are concerned, there were three pre-production He219B airframes that did see completion, one was V16 (WkNmr unknown) that had Jumo222s installed, enlarged wings and a FuG 16ZY installed, reported to have first flown in early 1943, last mentioned in a report on 1 February 44.

    He219 V23 also saw the installation of Jumo222s, though details of it's overall modifications are vague, it's reported to have flown in 1943 also. It was last noted in a report in April 1944.

    V27, the last of the three types that were intended to be a "B" configuration, was first flown in 1943, it too "falling off the books" in February of 1944.

    Records for the He219 are spotty, and it seems the later in the war things progressed, the worse the records became.

    I haven't seen any records that stated any of these three made it to a forward area, but then again, I haven't seen any records that said they did not...
     
  14. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,093
    Likes Received:
    657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Per the same source I recited early:

    V16 Code was RL-AJ and the W.Nr was 190016. The user was EHAG
    V23 listed as 2nd prototype with the Jumo 222 but all other info still open
    V27 listed as B-1 with Jumo 222 E/F, user was E-Stelle Rechlin, all other info still open.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    113
    V23 was later converted to become one of three aircraft with the three man cockpit and was earmarked for trials with Erprobungsgruppe Werneuchen. Both it and V16 had the larger wing proposed for the B-1.

    I thought that V27 was the last of the three A-7 prototypes, though when the A-7 finally entered production in January 1945 it was powered by the DB 603 G. It may have been used for ther trials subsequently as this would be quite usual.

    The most damning indictment of the He 219, often touted as Germany's best night fighter, is that not one version, even experimental ones with jets bolted underneath, could catch a de Havilland Mosquito.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  16. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    835
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Neither A-6 nor B reached production status but the A-6 could be made by stripping A off armor and some guns. Five D (most likely D-0) were delivered though but due to problems with the Jumo 213E engines they were probably not really used.
    V16 Werknummer identifies this as an A-0 airframe.
    I have never heard of a Jumo 222 with turbocharging.
     
  17. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    15,222
    Likes Received:
    2,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Public Safety Automotive Technician
    Location:
    Redding, California
    Home Page:
    I have read to the contrary. A small batch of He219A-0 went operational with I./NJG 1 based out of Venlo in April 43, successfully downing RAF bombers, including Mosquitos. There are other successes like Major Streib's downing of 5 Lancasters on the night of 11 June 43, in a He219A-0. (Incidently, Maj. Streib was with I./NJG 1)

    As far as "jet powered", I was aware that one He219 (V30 - 190101) was used to test a Jumo004 jet engine, it being mounted under the fuselage. It crashed 13 November 1943.
     
  18. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The reason that the Germans were investigating lightened versions of the He 219, high altitude versions and even adding supplementary turbojets, was precisely to enable it to reach and catch the de Havilland Mosquito. The Luftwaffe, from the top down, seems to have developed something of an obsession with countering the Mosquito.

    The first Mosquito downed by an He 219 was that shot down on the night of 6th May 1944 by Oberleutnant Werner Baake. His combat report makes it clear why. The Mosquito was flying below its normal operating altitude at 8,000m enabling Baake to dive down on it. The most common A series He 219s in service at this time could barely manage 8,500m altitude unless virtually devoid of fuel and ammunition. This is a full 500m below the normal operating height of the RAF's Mosquitos of 9,000-10,000 metres.
    The maximum speed for a normally equipped He 219 A night fighter, at a mere 6,500m, was 560 Kph (less than 350 mph). Good luck chasing Mosquitos with that sort of performance. Now, if a Mosquito flew low or slow it could of course be caught, but if flown to take advantage of its best defensive properties (altitude and speed) it was virtually invulnerable to the A series He 219s in service with NJG 1. Conversely the Mosquito night fighter always remained the greatest threat to the He 219 and many were lost to it.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  19. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    113
    #19 stona, Jun 13, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
    Facts are always good.
    A total of 159 claims were made by crews flying He 219 night fighters. Of these 159 only 11 were for Mosquitos. One of these claims is not supported by a corresponding loss to the RAF. This means that between June 1943 (not April) and the end of the war the He 219 'Mosquito Killer' shot down precisely 10 Mosquitos.

    Streib/Fischer did indeed score 5 victories on the night of 11/12 June. Maj.Streib claimed four Halifaxes and a Lancaster though one of his Halifaxes was in fact a Lancaster. The first Mosquito claimed is as above (ML958 of 109 Sqn.) nearly a year later on 6th May 1944.

    The He 219 was a very good night fighter for its time, but as a Mosquito killer it was really no good at all. The Halifax typically operated at 18,000ft, the Lancaster 22,000, the Mosquito 10,000 above that !

    27 He 219s were recorded as total losses operationally over German territory. Of these 23 fell to allied fighters (2 to flak and 2 were bombed). There were a further 23 non-operational total losses.

    Regarding the B-1/B-2, Ferguson, in his meticulously researched paper, doesn't reckon that the B-1 got beyond the planning stage. This would mean that neither the B-1 nor the B-2 actually flew, let alone became operational.
    He does not include any B sub type in any of his lists. He identifies six machines fitted with the Jumo 213 E engine (V41 and five others W.Nrn. 420371-375) as He 219 D-1s based on factory documentation.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
Loading...

Share This Page