Bullockracing
Airman 1st Class
Maybe someone could start a thread on what Goering could have done with a historical timeline perspective on what decisions he made and their effects. I know this would open up all sorts of rants...
heinkel he 100 and focke wulf fw 187
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Twitch
Staff Sergeant
The choice of aircraft had nothing to do with Göring in a personal sense. The problem was within the RLM- Reichsluftfahrtministerium (Air Ministry). Erhard Milch and initially Ernst Udet before his death were the controling influences in it.
The Bf in Bf 109 comes from the 1925 merger with WW I, 62-kill ace Ernst Udet's Bayerische Flugzeugwerke. As of 1932 Messerschmitt was the sole owner thanks to a huge loan from the Air Ministry. Early Messerschmitt aircraft retained the Bf in their designations like the Bf 109 and 110.
Udet was personal friend of Willy Meserschmitt but a long-standing mutual dislike between Messerschmitt and Milch stemmed from a 1928 incident. Göring liked Messerschmitt perhaps only because he disliked Milch more so and gave Messerschmitt favor.
The real tragic figure in all this was Ernst Heinkel who was virtually made a persona no grata because of his criticism of Htiler and the RLM. He was pals with Udet though. Why did they dislike him so? Because in 1939 he was extolling the virtues of the jet turbine and no one wanted to hear it from Hitler to Milch. Here is the very thing that we all discuss in "what if" scenarios- early jets and producing plenty of them, and Heinkel saw the future and wanted to push their development.
While Herman Göring led the Luftwaffe his intermediary was the RLM that took his want list and attempted to make it reality by interfacing with manufacturers. If a certain type of aircraft was desired Göring would put down the specifications and the Ministry would draw them up as technical requirements and pass them on to aircraft builders. Of course people from the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe contributed what they envisioned as needs too. If the manufacturers thought they could create the said aircraft they presented a proposal to the Ministry with as specific as possible performance data, based on their expertise. The "P" before most numbers stands simply for Projekt. When a project was accepted a company designation number was attached.
As the war unfolded the Air Ministry would put forth specification criteria for aircraft that they in their alleged expertise thought Germany should have.
In the latter stages of the war Albert Speer headed the ministry due to his ability to generally keep all German industry humming. Aircraft requirements were now concentrated on interceptor types. Sometimes balanced designs were compromised or deliberately overlooked for unknown reasons while some planes were built that had little value. Promising types were more often not considered.
Such is the case if one tries to open the champagne bottle, fussing with the cork, at a minute to midnight on New Year's Eve.
The Bf in Bf 109 comes from the 1925 merger with WW I, 62-kill ace Ernst Udet's Bayerische Flugzeugwerke. As of 1932 Messerschmitt was the sole owner thanks to a huge loan from the Air Ministry. Early Messerschmitt aircraft retained the Bf in their designations like the Bf 109 and 110.
Udet was personal friend of Willy Meserschmitt but a long-standing mutual dislike between Messerschmitt and Milch stemmed from a 1928 incident. Göring liked Messerschmitt perhaps only because he disliked Milch more so and gave Messerschmitt favor.
The real tragic figure in all this was Ernst Heinkel who was virtually made a persona no grata because of his criticism of Htiler and the RLM. He was pals with Udet though. Why did they dislike him so? Because in 1939 he was extolling the virtues of the jet turbine and no one wanted to hear it from Hitler to Milch. Here is the very thing that we all discuss in "what if" scenarios- early jets and producing plenty of them, and Heinkel saw the future and wanted to push their development.
While Herman Göring led the Luftwaffe his intermediary was the RLM that took his want list and attempted to make it reality by interfacing with manufacturers. If a certain type of aircraft was desired Göring would put down the specifications and the Ministry would draw them up as technical requirements and pass them on to aircraft builders. Of course people from the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe contributed what they envisioned as needs too. If the manufacturers thought they could create the said aircraft they presented a proposal to the Ministry with as specific as possible performance data, based on their expertise. The "P" before most numbers stands simply for Projekt. When a project was accepted a company designation number was attached.
As the war unfolded the Air Ministry would put forth specification criteria for aircraft that they in their alleged expertise thought Germany should have.
In the latter stages of the war Albert Speer headed the ministry due to his ability to generally keep all German industry humming. Aircraft requirements were now concentrated on interceptor types. Sometimes balanced designs were compromised or deliberately overlooked for unknown reasons while some planes were built that had little value. Promising types were more often not considered.
Such is the case if one tries to open the champagne bottle, fussing with the cork, at a minute to midnight on New Year's Eve.
Neilster
Airman
Twitch said:
My info says Spring 1937. That's from several sources. My reading on this one is that this was a very worthy aircraft that would have been far superior to the Me 110 as a long range escort if built in that role and not as a destroyer. Apparently the pilots that flew them preferred them to Me 110s but that wasn't politically correct.
Also, I was under the impression that 109s had drop tanks towards the end of the BoB.
FW 187 and developed He 112 anyone? Alternative history I know.
Cheers, Neilster
109s first used frop tanks as well in the Spanish Civil War. Ofcourse this was just for test purposes as the whole war was for the Luftwaffe.
As for the He-100, wasn't one of the reasons it was not selected for production was the concern that it would have slowed He-111 production? Also, didn't the He-100 have issues with it's surface evaporation radiators? The He-100 was certainly a pretty airplane, though.
I think you are right, but given time they could have corrected the problem.
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
Huh? The Bf 110V1 flew on May 12, 1936. Tye V2 and V3 flew on October 24 and December 24 respectively. The V2 was sent to Reichlin for trials on January 14, 1937. That must be what you're thinking of Neilster
Neilster
Airman
Twitch said:
No. I know the difference between the FW 187 and the Bf 110.
This is from Focke-Wulf 187 archive file
The first prototype made its first flight in late spring 1937 with Hans Sander as its pilot. 560km/h were expected with the 1000PS DB 600, but 523km/h were already reached with the 700 PS Jumo 210 in the unarmed V-1 prototype. While testing, several details changed: new props, twin wheels (as an experiment), and the rudders got a shortened profile.
Meanwhile, the guys in the RLM got crazy; they wanted this plane as a destroyer (one definition of a destroyer: two crew members, heavy armament, two engines). Of course, everybody can see that there is no place for defensive weapons, and on long range escort missions, the bombers navigate and the escorts only have to stay in relative position, but they wanted a second crew member. Although this reduced the range and the dogfight abilities.
So Focke-Wulf designed the third prototype Fw 187V-3 with two crew members, new engine covering, different fuselage structure and two 20mm MG FF. It flew first in spring 1938, and two similar planes followed. The first prototype was destroyed on 14.05.1938 (the pilot paul bauer flew too risky and stalled during a loop), but the program continued, and Focke-Wulf got two 1.000PS DB 600 engines for the sixth prototype (Fw 187V6), which reached a speed of 636km/h (60-120km/h more than the fighters of the Battle of Britain reached in 1940 with 1050 to 1330PS engines). Next, three Fw 187A-0 (based upon the third prototype) pre-serial planes were built and used since summer 1940 as a defense for the Focke-Wulf facilities at Bremen, later in the Winter inofficially at the 13. destroyer squadron in Norway. The pilots in Norway were enthusiastic about its potential and demanded quantity production, but instead they were ordered to give the planes back to Focke-Wulf because they were only in inofficial use. Some Fw187 were also used in the aerial shooting school in Vaerlose, Denmark.
Wikipedia puts the first flight as Spring 1937 as well. Then there's this...
The first prototype Fw 187 V1 (D-AANA) was ready to fly in spring 1937, and was powered by two 680 hp Jumo 210Da engines. Even with these low powered engines the aircraft attained 326 mph (525 kmh) at 13,123 ft (4,000 m), a full 50 mph (80 kmh) faster than the latest Bf-109B-2 production single-seat fighters.
The aircraft was lost on May 14, 1938 during a low level high speed pass at the test facility in Bremen. The pilot was believed to have pulled up to sharply at the end of the pass, the aircraft stalled, and spun into the ground.
The second prototype Fw 187 V2 was flying by summer of 1937 and it was destined to be the last single seat version. Earnst Udet had replaced von Richtofen by this point in time, and while Udet was a visionary in some respects, he was a total conventionalist when it came to fighter planes. Two engined fighter planes were less maneuverable than single seat fighters so all further development of the Fw 187 was to be as a "Zerstorer" (destroyer) having two or three seats and heavy armaments for attack and defence.
...from Focke-Wulf Fw 187 Falke "Falcon" and this...
The twin-engined Focke-Wulf Fw 187 was a contemporary of the Messerschmitt Bf 110, however production was limited to a handful of prototypes. So far the story of this largely forgotten fighter has been shrouded in darkness. Developed by Professor Kurt Tank, the Fw 187 first flew in the summer of 1937.
...from Focke-Wulf Fw 187 by Dietmar Hermann and Peter Petrick - Schifferbooks.com
I don't have any of my books with me but I can check in them too.
Cheers, Neilster
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
The 110 and 187 are apple and oranges really to me. While the 110 first flew in 1936 it was it was accepted in Luftwaffe service in 1937 with quantity deliveries in spring 1938.
I was looking at the fact that the first 3 actual non-prototype Fw 187A-0s didn't fly till 1940. Now if we look at a "what if" where the RLM gods had favored the Fw 187 it is entitrely possible that the ship "coulda" been in service at the same time of the Bf 110.
It was the RLM that had the "ho-hum" attitude on the Fw 187. The 3 A-0s that the Luftwaffe were "loaned" were liked by pilots. My feeling is that there was only room for ONE aircraft for the role these planes were conceived and Willy Messerschmitt was the fair-haired boy of the RLM and since the 110 was over a year ahead in its maiden flight and had a huge jump on the 187 they gave Willy the nod.
Sometimes the politics of the 3rd Reich's bizarre relationships of personalities was as interesting as the planes!
I was looking at the fact that the first 3 actual non-prototype Fw 187A-0s didn't fly till 1940. Now if we look at a "what if" where the RLM gods had favored the Fw 187 it is entitrely possible that the ship "coulda" been in service at the same time of the Bf 110.
It was the RLM that had the "ho-hum" attitude on the Fw 187. The 3 A-0s that the Luftwaffe were "loaned" were liked by pilots. My feeling is that there was only room for ONE aircraft for the role these planes were conceived and Willy Messerschmitt was the fair-haired boy of the RLM and since the 110 was over a year ahead in its maiden flight and had a huge jump on the 187 they gave Willy the nod.
Sometimes the politics of the 3rd Reich's bizarre relationships of personalities was as interesting as the planes!
