Hello from Gulf Coast Florida

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Still, as a Dutchman, I'm amazed at the fact that your government doesn't work on prevention. To me it seems like they are betting on helping after disaster struck. There are ways to prevent these storm surge from getting dangerous. You'll have to invest quite a bit of money, but I'm sure in the end it's much cheaper then have to evacuate whole areas every year. Not to mention the loss of lives and the damage caused by the storms.
After the 1953 we invested millions in the Delta Works and now we are safer than you are even though we live 7 metres below sea level and you do not.
 
Too much passing of stuffed envelopes between interested parties.

Unlike places in Holland there is plenty of land to build on, it just isn't in places with good views or convenient to "down town".

So "Urban Planning" or coastal planning is done with much more of an eye towards maximum return on investment to the land developers and builders than it is towards safety or future floods.

The US also has "Barrier Islands" (essentially sand bars) that run from New Jersey to tip of Florida (over 1800km, think coast of France to the tip of Denmark) ) and large areas of the Gulf Coast with homes reaching the millions of dollars and even cities (Miami Beach FL, Galveston TX.) Which area/s gets protected first?

Many homes in these areas are now built on stilts with the living area 8-10 ft above ground level to let the flooding go underneath.

We cannot afford to keep rebuilding in the same locations and we cannot afford to "harden" the entire coastline.
 
No of course you cannot afford hardening the whole cost, but you can afford to protect the urban areas. Houston, New Orleans, Miami. There are enough people to valid a good water protection system.

I mean, in New Orleans there was really nothing done. That's amazing in such a dangerous area with so many people. After Katrina they got it done with our help. So it can be done if the proper stimulation is applied (= a proper disaster)
 
It is a common problem with people's perceptions when they are not from here. It is a matter of scale. For instance just the urban coastlines in Florida would require considerably, as in a factor of more than 100 fold, more work and money than all the works done in the Netherlands. Now add in the rest of the east coast and the entire budget of the EU could not even put a dent into the necessary outlay.

Cities like Miami, New York, New Orleans have all spent many many millions of both local and federal dollars on strengthening their sea defenses. In the case of Katrina and New Orleans a combination of underestimating potential storm surge and lack of maintenance put the city at risk. But the majority of the deaths were avoidable and due more to poor disaster planning than anything else. Not to mention it is always amazing to me that people who are warned are still often guilty of not believing the risk and decide not to evacuate.

Figure it this way, the size of the Netherlands is roughly 16,040 square miles of which roughly 26% is considered below sea level. So the urban areas in Florida alone account for twice the size of the Netherlands. Now add in the rest of the east coast, not even counting gulf coast, and only including those areas that are heavily urbanized. You end up with basically 20 times the size of all the Netherlands that requires sea defense strengthening. It is not practical nor affordable to even really begin the necessary work. Some urban areas are making progress notably New York, but others are not.
 
Also, the following applies to how a lot of folk think about floods.


A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, "I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me."

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, "We're leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!" But the man declined. "I have faith that God will save me."

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, "Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!" But the man again said, "No thanks, God will save me."

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. "We will come up and rescue you!" they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, "Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!"

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. "No thank you! God will save me!"

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, "I put all of my faith in You. Why didn't You come and save me?"

And God said, "Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?"
 
I would also note that many times the US does not think in a "national" sense. As in people in Kansas (and their elected officials) see no reason why they should pay for (with higher taxes) engineering projects in Florida or New Jersey or Texas that are hundreds if not thousands of miles away and will make absolutely no difference to anybody in Kansas. At least until the Texas oil refineries shut down and the price of gas in Kansas goes up. :)

My wife is from California and while you can't escape the earth quakes her opinion of houses destroyed by mud slides and wildfires is "Don't build/buy a house in an area prone to mudslides/wildfires." You want to live in a house on a hillside made of dirt with no bedrock because of the nice view? Don't expect me (who lives in the flat lands) to pay for government "insurance" to rebuild it the 2nd or 3rd time it slides down the hill. You want to use wooden shingles on your roof because they are aesthetically pleasing? Don't expect much sympathy when flying embers set your house on fire from 1/2 to 1 mile away. (they are getting better building/fire codes) same with clearing brush.
Something should "click" in your brain when you move into the "forest" and they tell you to clear all trees and bushes 30-100 feet back from the house.
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The US may have to "defend" harbors and ports from storm surge as a national policy. Defending beach houses and tourist resorts/condominiums (or paying to rebuild them multiple times) is not really in the national interest.
 
Exactly so. In the case of the Netherlands it was a national need for survival. Plus honestly the scale works. Literally everyone in the Netherlands knows someone that would be affected by floods etc. The vast majority of the US does not know anyone that would be directly affected by earthquakes, hurricanes, or floods. Think of the Central part of the country here. It it subjected to Tornadoes that few parts of the rest of the country ever see. But it rarely sees a flood and never sees a hurricane or severe earthquake. Each region of the nation has its own risks and each region continues to build in inappropriate ways and areas. Here in NC we are getting tired of using funds to rebuild beaches and homes on barrier islands time after time.

People in Mississippi are tired of supporting people that continue building in flood plains time and time again and on and on the list goes. California as you mentioned, mud slides, and fires destroy the same areas over and over and yet people continue to build again. Honestly I have no sympathy nor desire to subsidize idiots yet I have little choice as their stupidity and government regulations require insurers to continue to offer them insurance. So that impacts everyones rates etc.

No easy answers, but at some point we need to acknowledge that some practices are so inherently risky that they should be self insured and not cost the rest of us.
 
Robert Porter said:
Exactly so. In the case of the Netherlands it was a national need for survival. Plus honestly the scale works. Literally everyone in the Netherlands knows someone that would be affected by floods etc. The vast majority of the US does not know anyone that would be directly affected by earthquakes, hurricanes, or floods. Think of the Central part of the country here. It it subjected to Tornadoes that few parts of the rest of the country ever see. But it rarely sees a flood and never sees a hurricane or severe earthquake. Each region of the nation has its own risks and each region continues to build in inappropriate ways and areas. Here in NC we are getting tired of using funds to rebuild beaches and homes on barrier islands time after time.

People in Mississippi are tired of supporting people that continue building in flood plains time and time again and on and on the list goes. California as you mentioned, mud slides, and fires destroy the same areas over and over and yet people continue to build again. Honestly I have no sympathy nor desire to subsidize idiots yet I have little choice as their stupidity and government regulations require insurers to continue to offer them insurance. So that impacts everyones rates etc.

No easy answers, but at some point we need to acknowledge that some practices are so inherently risky that they should be self insured and not cost the rest of us.
Click to expand...
Robert, I live in Fresno because it is California without the fires, mud slides, floods, or Earth quakes. If the ground shakes as it does once in a great while, it is somebody Else's quake. Glad all in Florida are doing well. My sister's home just outside of Orlando was spared but she had no power for a week.
 
at6 said:
Robert, I live in Fresno because it is California without the fires, mud slides, floods, or Earth quakes. If the ground shakes as it does once in a great while, it is somebody Else's quake. Glad all in Florida are doing well. My sister's home just outside of Orlando was spared but she had no power for a week.
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Glad to hear your sister made it through with nothing worse than power loss! But don't be so sure you are safe from quakes!

Major Earthquake Could Threaten Fresno
 
Robert Porter said:
Glad to hear your sister made it through with nothing worse than power loss! But don't be so sure you are safe from quakes!

Major Earthquake Could Threaten Fresno
Click to expand...
Based the article, I may well be deceased before any large shakers hit Fresno. But anything can happen at any time. I hope it doesn't happen, but I will not sit and worry about it.
 
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