Help identifying lamp? Avro Lancaster?

[NickG]

Hello everyone - I'm hoping someone can help me identify this adjustable lamp, please? I've been told it was used in the tail turret of an Avro Lancaster, but have been unable to verify elsewhere.

I have found archive photographs of navigators at work, but their adjustable lamps - though similar - have spring-loaded arms, whereas this one's arms are locked in place by a tightening screw.

The shade is original, I'm told, and the switch section is a very distinctive mottled brown bakelite. The part number is 5CX/4856. The name Herbert Terry has been mentioned, as the lamp's designer.

That's all the information I have. If anyone can help me piece facts from that and the photos I'd be very grateful.

 

[stona]

My initial reaction is that I would be amazed if any kind of illumination was fitted inside the tail turret, or any other turret, of any British bomber. I have not double checked, nor can I until I return to the UK in a week or so.
The navigator on a Lancaster did indeed have a light but was shielded by a curtain from the front part of the aircraft.
Any light could give an aircraft's position away at night with fatal consequences.

More practically, given the lack of room in the Lancaster's rear turret, I'm struggling to think where and how such a light might have been fitted.

Cheers

Steve

 

[NickG]

My initial reaction is that I would be amazed if any kind of illumination was fitted inside the tail turret, or any other turret, of any British bomber. I have not double checked, nor can I until I return to the UK in a week or so.
The navigator on a Lancaster did indeed have a light but was shielded by a curtain from the front part of the aircraft.
Any light could give an aircraft's position away at night with fatal consequences.

More practically, given the lack of room in the Lancaster's rear turret, I'm struggling to think where and how such a light might have been fitted.

Cheers

Steve

Hi Steve - Many thanks for your reply. Yes, I forgot to mention in my original post that the idea of a light shining from the rear turret didn't seem a good idea and it's my thought that this is the navigator's lamp from a Lancaster (or some other aircraft?). It certainly looks like other navigator lamps I've seen pictured - but not exactly the same, which is why I'm keen to try to identify this one. Cheers.

 

[GrauGeist]

From what I've seen, the Stirling, Wellington and Lancaster all used the "Anglepoise" lamp with the narrow hood.

Here's the navigator's section from a Stirling (note the lamp to the right of the plotting table):

As cramped as the turrets were, it's highly doubtful they would have had such a lamp in there and as you can see from the photo, even the plotting lamp's hood was much smaller in diameter.
Also, aside from fact that such a lamp would could be easily seen from a great distance at night (as Steve mentioned), it would have ruined the gunner's night vision.

 

[NickG]

From what I've seen, the Stirling, Wellington and Lancaster all used the "Anglepoise" lamp with the narrow hood.

Here's the navigator's section from a Stirling (note the lamp to the right of the plotting table):

View attachment 355725

As cramped as the turrets were, it's highly doubtful they would have had such a lamp in there and as you can see from the photo, even the plotting lamp's hood was much smaller in diameter.
Also, aside from fact that such a lamp would could be easily seen from a great distance at night (as Steve mentioned), it would have ruined the gunner's night vision.

Thank you for the info and picture. That lamp is very similar style to mine and am convinced mine is a navigator's light and nothing to do with the rear turret. I'd love to identify the aircraft it can from if possible.

 

[stona]

Also, aside from fact that such a lamp would could be easily seen from a great distance at night (as Steve mentioned), it would have ruined the gunner's night vision.

It would indeed. When you consider that many chose to remove the central perspex panel of the turret and consequently suffer even more extreme cold in an effort to increase their chance of seeing a night fighter, it would be incredible to think they would use, or need, a light!

I do think it looks like a navigators light, and from the photos and description it certainly might date from the correct period. More investigation required methinks.

Cheers

Steve

 

[herman1rg]

ORIGINAL RAF WW2 NAVIGATORS LAMP AIR MINISTRY HERBERT TERRY ANGLE POISE MAP | eBay

 

[GrauGeist]

I hate to say this, but from what I'm seeing, is the Herbert Terry Anglepoise lamps that have switches and wide shades are non-military, as the Air Ministry issued lamps are switched at the source and have the narrow shade.

The style with a switch at the socket (most often) and broad shade is a model 1227.

 

[Crimea_River]

Could be the Wireless Operator's lamp. Will have some parts manual info shortly.

 

[Crimea_River]

Going by RCAF Lancaster Mk X Parts List (unfortunately, i don't have one for British built machines), there are two lamps that look like the one you posted: one, as mentioned, at the W/Op position and another in the rear section opposite the crew door. Part number is the same for both (5C/3395) and similar to the number you posted. It's likely that British and Canadian lamps came from different suppliers so I would expect different numbers. Excerpts here, starting with the W/Op lamp:

Rear lamp:

 

[NickG]

Thank you all for the very interesting contributions. The "rear section opposite the crew door" lamp seems to me the most feasible option, as I was assured my light was from the rear section of the aircraft... except the parts number doesn't match the one I was given, although the diagram does show a lamp that looks very similar...

All further leads gratefully received!

 

[bobbychipping]

Hi,
As we have been finding out, RCAF ref nos have most often no correlation to RAF ref nos eg
5C/551 RAF=Switch, double pole, 5 amps Type A, 2 1/4'' diameter
5C/551 RCAF=Filament, lamp (Which would have RAF 5L/ no)
So your 5CX/4856 may be the same as RCAF 5C/3395

Further. I have checked all my Lancaster manuals and results are:
Parts list for Lanc I & III, Air Publication 2062A and C published in 1943, electrical wiring & routing lists
only show the angle poise lamp for Navigator, lighting is described as follows:

15. General lighting and turret supplies—The general lighting services are
fed from one fuse, with the exceptions mentioned below, and the following
lamps are fitted. Two floodlamps, type B, are provided for the pilot (one on a
separate fuse), and single floodlamps for the wireless operator's station, for
the D.F. loop and for the electrical services panel. A cabin lamp is fitted on the
port side of the nose, at the wireless operator's station, at the rest station, just
aft of the rear spar, at the flare station, on the port side just forward of the main
door, and just forward of the draught-proof doors. A switch at the main door
controls the lamp on the opposite side. Two cockpit lamps, Mk. II, are fitted
to the front former for the bomb aimer, and a cockpit lamp is provided on each
of the following panels :- Bomb aimer's port and starboard panels, air observer's
panel (connected to the pilot's separate floodlamp fuse) and navigator's panel.
An angle poise chartboard lamp (Terry type L.315) is provided for the navigator's
table.
So for Lanc I & III the lamps at the rear section are given as 'Cabin lights' or 'Cabin lamps'
indicating fixed position 'dome' type lamps
Have also checked Crew notes and Avro Lancaster Haynes Owners Workshop Manual
with no mention of angle poise lamp in rear fuselage
Don't have information on other Lancaster variants or modifications
(possibly also Manchester, Lincoln or York, if we are sticking with Avro)
I might also suggest dropping a line to Dave ([email protected]),
he may well have AP1086 Book 3 Part 2 which covers 5CX, he has been helpful in the past
Hope I have helped a little & not muddied the waters too much
Bobby

 

[bobbychipping]

Me again,
Just added 2 more diagrams which may be of interest
Bobby

 

[fubar57]

Nice stuff and welcome to the forum

 

[NickG]

Hi,
As we have been finding out, RCAF ref nos have most often no correlation to RAF ref nos eg
5C/551 RAF=Switch, double pole, 5 amps Type A, 2 1/4'' diameter
5C/551 RCAF=Filament, lamp (Which would have RAF 5L/ no)
So your 5CX/4856 may be the same as RCAF 5C/3395

Further. I have checked all my Lancaster manuals and results are:
Parts list for Lanc I & III, Air Publication 2062A and C published in 1943, electrical wiring & routing lists
only show the angle poise lamp for Navigator, lighting is described as follows:

15. General lighting and turret supplies—The general lighting services are
fed from one fuse, with the exceptions mentioned below, and the following
lamps are fitted. Two floodlamps, type B, are provided for the pilot (one on a
separate fuse), and single floodlamps for the wireless operator's station, for
the D.F. loop and for the electrical services panel. A cabin lamp is fitted on the
port side of the nose, at the wireless operator's station, at the rest station, just
aft of the rear spar, at the flare station, on the port side just forward of the main
door, and just forward of the draught-proof doors. A switch at the main door
controls the lamp on the opposite side. Two cockpit lamps, Mk. II, are fitted
to the front former for the bomb aimer, and a cockpit lamp is provided on each
of the following panels :- Bomb aimer's port and starboard panels, air observer's
panel (connected to the pilot's separate floodlamp fuse) and navigator's panel.
An angle poise chartboard lamp (Terry type L.315) is provided for the navigator's
table.
So for Lanc I & III the lamps at the rear section are given as 'Cabin lights' or 'Cabin lamps'
indicating fixed position 'dome' type lamps
Have also checked Crew notes and Avro Lancaster Haynes Owners Workshop Manual
with no mention of angle poise lamp in rear fuselage
Don't have information on other Lancaster variants or modifications
(possibly also Manchester, Lincoln or York, if we are sticking with Avro)
I might also suggest dropping a line to Dave ([email protected]),
he may well have AP1086 Book 3 Part 2 which covers 5CX, he has been helpful in the past
Hope I have helped a little & not muddied the waters too much
Bobby

Hi Bobby - Many thanks for your detailed research, it's much appreciated. There is a slight muddying, inevitably, but I suspect the waters need to muddy a little before they can clear. I will get in touch with Dave - thanks for the tip - and see where that takes me. All best. Nick

 

[NickG]

Hi,
As we have been finding out, RCAF ref nos have most often no correlation to RAF ref nos eg
5C/551 RAF=Switch, double pole, 5 amps Type A, 2 1/4'' diameter
5C/551 RCAF=Filament, lamp (Which would have RAF 5L/ no)
So your 5CX/4856 may be the same as RCAF 5C/3395

Further. I have checked all my Lancaster manuals and results are:
Parts list for Lanc I & III, Air Publication 2062A and C published in 1943, electrical wiring & routing lists
only show the angle poise lamp for Navigator, lighting is described as follows:

15. General lighting and turret supplies—The general lighting services are
fed from one fuse, with the exceptions mentioned below, and the following
lamps are fitted. Two floodlamps, type B, are provided for the pilot (one on a
separate fuse), and single floodlamps for the wireless operator's station, for
the D.F. loop and for the electrical services panel. A cabin lamp is fitted on the
port side of the nose, at the wireless operator's station, at the rest station, just
aft of the rear spar, at the flare station, on the port side just forward of the main
door, and just forward of the draught-proof doors. A switch at the main door
controls the lamp on the opposite side. Two cockpit lamps, Mk. II, are fitted
to the front former for the bomb aimer, and a cockpit lamp is provided on each
of the following panels :- Bomb aimer's port and starboard panels, air observer's
panel (connected to the pilot's separate floodlamp fuse) and navigator's panel.
An angle poise chartboard lamp (Terry type L.315) is provided for the navigator's
table.
So for Lanc I & III the lamps at the rear section are given as 'Cabin lights' or 'Cabin lamps'
indicating fixed position 'dome' type lamps
Have also checked Crew notes and Avro Lancaster Haynes Owners Workshop Manual
with no mention of angle poise lamp in rear fuselage
Don't have information on other Lancaster variants or modifications
(possibly also Manchester, Lincoln or York, if we are sticking with Avro)
I might also suggest dropping a line to Dave ([email protected]),
he may well have AP1086 Book 3 Part 2 which covers 5CX, he has been helpful in the past
Hope I have helped a little & not muddied the waters too much
Bobby

Just tried emailing [email protected] and got "invalid recipient". So tried finding a website at dgsaviation.co.uk to source alternative email address, but no dice. If have any alternative, be grateful to receive. Cheers

 

[bobbychipping]

Just tried emailing [email protected] and got "invalid recipient". So tried finding a website at dgsaviation.co.uk to source alternative email address, but no dice. If have any alternative, be grateful to receive. Cheers

My keyboard made a typo - should be 'dsgaviation' not dgsaviation -
ebay site dsgaviation | eBay & send a message
they are/were located: Aylsham, United Kingdom
Bobby
Adelaide, Australia
Also here is a pic showing Dome lights in RAF Lancaster

 

[GrauGeist]

Something I'd like to point about, regarding the lamp in question at the start of the thread:

It doesn't have the heavy base and dampened joints that an Air Ministry anglepoise lamp has. A bomber such as a Lancaster or Stirling will not have a smooth ride in flight and the lamp shown in the photos would be flopping all over the place. Also, the flange at the base would not hold up to that sort of punishment long, hence the very heavy bulkhead mounting brackets typically seen on Air Ministry examples.

If we look at photo IMG_1594 (in the first post), we'll see that it base flange is identical to a Dugdills machinist's lamp (also Herbert Terry models) base made during wartime. In the attached photo, we'll see that it has the exact same base flange and it's original cast pedestal:

If you compare that to an Air Ministry anglepoise, you'll notice that the lamp's arms are heavily dampened to eliminate movement with a heavy duty base to prevent failure in adverse flight conditions whereas the machinist's lamp has flexible ratchet joints to allow for easy positioning.

 

[bobbychipping]

GrauGeist may have a point about construction, howeverhttps://ww2aircraft.net/forum/members/graugeist.20628/
'The part number is 5CX/4856.' if this is genuine then:
AP1086 Book01 Vocabulary Of Sections has 5CX as:
'Aircraft electrical lamps, lampholders and accessories'
Lamps for other purposes would be in a different vocabulary section
A look at the actual entry for 5CX/4856 will reveal all
(I have more than 100 AP1086 Books, sadly AP1086 Book 3 Part 2 is not one of them)
Bobby

 

[GrauGeist]

Seen here, is F/O Ingleby at his station aboard a Lancaster Mk.III of 619 Squadron.

Note his anglepoise over the plotting table: