Hitler's Assassination

[timshatz]

Just got done watching a good documentary on German TV (It was actually a BBC documentary though) on the different attempts to kill Hitler.

Here are the ones they talked about in the documentary:

Someone fired shots at Hitler at the Hoffbrau Haus in July 1921 in Munich, Germany.

Someone fired shots at the Train Car that Hitler was riding in on March, 15, 1932 in Munich, Germany.

Hitlers car was fired upon in an ambush at a cross roads in Stralsund in June of 1932.

Shots were fired at Hitler in Nuernberg, Germany July, 30, 1932.

A bomb was planted to kill Hitler in Köningsberg, Germany on March 4, 1933.

An SA officer is arrested shortly before he attempted to shoot Hitler in Obersalzberg in June of 1933.

Helmut Hirsch attempted to kill Hitler with a bomb in Nuernberg, Germany in 1936. This one however is not confirmed. Hirsch did admit to doing so, but he was most likely under duress.

Josef Thomas attempted to shoot Hitler and Goering in Berlin, Germany in November 1937.

Maurice Bavaud attempted to shoot Hitler in Berlin, Germany in July 1938.

Georg Elser planted at bomb at Bürgerbräukeller in Munich, Germany on November 8, 1938. The bomb went off at 21:20 but Hitler left at 21:07...8 people were killed after the bomb went off.

Dr Erich Kordt attempted to shoot Hitler on November 11, 1939 in Berlin, Germany.

Oberleutnant d. R. Fritz-Dietlof Graf von der Schulenburg, Dr Eugen Gerstenmaier had attempted to shoot Hitler in July 1940 in Paris, France.

Major Friedrich König attempted to shoot Hitler in Smolensk, Russia in March 1943.

Generalmajor Henning von Tresckow, Leutnant Fabian von Schlabrendorff, Oberst Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff placed a bomb in the Fw 200 plane that was flying Hitler back to Berlin from Smolensk in March 1943. The bomb failed to explode.

Oberst Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff planted a bomb that failed to explode in Berlin, Germany on 13 March 1943.

Hauptmann Axel Freiherr von dem Busche-Streithorst planted a bomb at the Wolfschanze in December 1943. Hitler did not show up.

Ewald von Kleist planted a bomb at the Wolfschanze in January 1944. Hitler did not show up.

Hauptmann Eberhard von Breitenbuch attempted to shoot Hitler in Obersalzberg on 11 March 1944.

Oberst Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg attempted to plant a bomb at Obersalzberg on July 6, 1944.

Oberst Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg attempted to plant a bomb at Obersalzberg on July 11, 1944.

Oberst Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg planted a bomb at the Wolfschanze on July 20, 1944. Bomb exploded but only wounded Hitler.

Jeez! This guy had more lives than a friggin' cat. Way more. Very unpredictable and pretty cagy. Heard Saddam was the same way, always changing his plans and going in a different direction. Must be a dictator thing.

I had no idea there were that many attempts at killing Hitler. Suprised by how many military types tried to do it. Definitely puts a crimp in the idea that the Germans were all mindless robots.

But back to the poll. Hitler's death makes no real difference. The Western Allies knew they'd made a mistake by not occupying Germany in total after WW1. It allowed the "Stab in the Back" nonsense to gain ground by allowing some to say the Kaiser's Army to march back to Germany, saying it was undermined at home. The Western Allies wanted to destroy the German Army to prove to it that it was defeated. That was their goal from the start.

As far as the Russians were concerned, Hilter was bad, Goering was bad, Himmler was bad, all of them will be killed, what's the difference if it was Hitler or Goering or Himmler in charge? They were coming anyway and they were going to march all the way to Berlin.

Hitler's death in July of 44 might've extended the war a bit (the Ardennes Offensive doesn't happen) or it might've shortened it (Germany falls apart under the pressure of the Allied onslaught and Nazi party infighting). But the end result was a totally defeated Germany.

 

[The Basket]

If the July 20 plot had worked then Himmler would have been the new guy.

In the 30s it would have been Goering.

In my view Nazism was Hitler and with him gone then the whole thing would fell apart and probably a German civil war between the army and the SS if the July plot had worked.

Doenitz at Nuremburg once joked that all he did as Leader was end the war and now he was going to be hanged for it!

 

[Graeme]

Unlikely that he can prove it, but Waterkeyn believes that there were probably "hundreds of attempts to kill him (Hitler)."

 

[JugBR]

I agree Himmler would have taken power. I think that if the war had dragged on, Himmler would have tried anyhow.

i disagree because goering was a war hero and also a very popular men. the facist leaders are always very carismatic people, like hitler, franco or mussolini. also goering was the commander in chief of luftwaffe, the president of nazi party and also the second in command of III reich.

he even could be manipulated in the background by himmler, but i cant see any profit, after nazi take the power, make an internal struggle for power.

 

[Messy1]

I have to disagree. From what I understand, by this point, Goering had lost much favor with Hitler, and the rest of the Nazi party and military staff. He was not as widely respected as you make him out to be. His failure to deal with the bombing raids as Head of the Luftwaffe, (weather or not it was his doing) left a bad taste in people's mouths. His unfulfilled promises about delaing with the Allies had gone unfilled.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

i disagree because goering was a war hero and also a very popular men. the facist leaders are always very carismatic people, like hitler, franco or mussolini. also goering was the commander in chief of luftwaffe, the president of nazi party and also the second in command of III reich.

he even could be manipulated in the background by himmler, but i cant see any profit, after nazi take the power, make an internal struggle for power.

Actually he was not all that loved. He was viewed as a fat pill popping ass hole by many. They just never viewed their opinion, because it was not a healthy thing to do.

Also you are forgetting the fact that Himmler was in control of the SS, Gestapo and all police and security forces. It would be to easy for him to take power if Hitler was assassinated.

 

[SoD Stitch]

i disagree because goering was a war hero and also a very popular men. the facist leaders are always very carismatic people, like hitler, franco or mussolini. also goering was the commander in chief of luftwaffe, the president of nazi party and also the second in command of III reich.

he even could be manipulated in the background by himmler, but i cant see any profit, after nazi take the power, make an internal struggle for power.

It doesn't matter if you're popular or not, this is a police state we're talking about, not a democracy; Himmler had control of the Abwehr (indirectly, through Canaris), the Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo), the Sicherheitdienst (SD; after Heydrich's death), and the Schutzstaffel (SS), so it doesn't really matter what anybody thought, he'd just clamp down on society and take over.

 

[Maestro]

It doesn't matter if you're popular or not, this is a police state we're talking about, not a democracy; Himmler had control of the Abwehr (indirectly, through Canaris), the Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo), the Sicherheitdienst (SD; after Heydrich's death), and the Schutzstaffel (SS), so it doesn't really matter what anybody thought, he'd just clamp down on society and take over.

Just noticed that thread and thought I should jump in.

Excuse my ignorance, but I never heard of the SD before... What were they doing exactly ?

Anyway, I think it would have been a struggle between Rommel, Goering and Himmler...

Goering was the president of the Nazi Party and technically the second in command, Rommel was saw as being the best to defend the Reich properly and Himmler had command over all police forces... So it would have been an easy task for Himmler to order the execution of anybody standing against him.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I think Goering would have botched up the Reich worse than Hitler did. At least in the air war, which was what he was even best at. Rommel would be needed or some experienced general to lead the German army.

 

[SoD Stitch]

Excuse my ignorance, but I never heard of the SD before... What were they doing exactly ?

The Sicherheitdienst (SD) was the SS's own secret intelligence service, originally formed in 1932 under the infamous Reinhardt Heydrich; it was the sole intelligence organization of the NSDAP. In many ways, it duplicated the efforts of the Abwehr (another example of Germany's needless duplication of efforts under Hitler).

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Just noticed that thread and thought I should jump in.

Excuse my ignorance, but I never heard of the SD before... What were they doing exactly ?

The Sicherheitsdienst was basically an intelligence service of the SS and the Nazi party.

Anyway, I think it would have been a struggle between Rommel, Goering and Himmler...

Goering was the president of the Nazi Party and technically the second in command, Rommel was saw as being the best to defend the Reich properly and Himmler had command over all police forces... So it would have been an easy task for Himmler to order the execution of anybody standing against him.

Rommel would not have been involved with any power struggle. He had no desire to be a part of politics, he was a soldier and not a politician.

 

[timshatz]

Keep in mind that whoever takes over, by the Summer of 44, all the major events that setup the final period of the war had already happened. The Battle of Kursk had been fought, Normandy had been invaded, the U-boat threat was supressed (if not over) and the Luftwaffe had been devistated.

No personality was going to change the essential truth that Germany had lost the war and it was simply a matter of time and details how that end came. They had lost the initiative. Local offensives by the Wermacht did nothing more than hurry the end by squandering resources.

By the Summer of '44, it was a case of re-arrainging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Messy1]

I do not think there was too many people wanting to make a grab for power and oust Hitler for personal reasons at this point. The was was all but lost by this time, there was not much power left for anyone at this point.

Keep in mind that if the war had not been lost, and Germany's future set by this point, there may not have been a attempt on Hitler's life. The main reason I think for the assassination attempts on Hitlers life was because many in the military and government could see that Hitler would not stop until there was nothing left of Germany to save, and they were trying save what was left of Germany.

Taking over Germany at this time would have been like taking over as captain of the Titanic a few hours after it hit the iceberg!

 

[Freebird]

I've been really curious about this for a long time now, and was wondering what sort of thoughts others have: how would WW2 have played out if the July '44 assassination attempt against Hitler had succeeded?

Shouldn't you have another option, signs armistice with US/UK and keeps fighting only in the east?

The Allies didn't trust the plotters, they could not offer them anything other than unconditional surrender that was already required. It is quite possible though that the Germans Kluge Rommel would have conducted an orderly withdrawal in the West. Meanwhile, trying to hold off the Russians in the East so as to evacuate from Eastern Germany as many as possible.
The only assistance I could see the Allies giving is a reduction in the 'City' bombing.
Though perhaps once the Allies reach the Rhine they would have to halt to let their supplies to catch up (like the Red Army did at the Vistula while Warsaw revolted).

Not so sure Merlin. Churchill would have thought very carefully about an offer, with Hitler dead then his # 1 target would be Stalin.

Suppose the Army had taken over {Beck etc} and had acted quickly to grab the top Nazis {were Himmler Goering there on July 20?} They would blame the whole mess on the top Nazi's, and offer an armictice of:

1.) withdraw to 1939 borders
2.) all combat cease in the west
3.) turn over all top Nazis
4.) agree to democratic elections.

Roosevelt would probably object, but Churchill would very much like to eliminate communism as well as the Nazis.

If the Germans offered to withdraw to 1939 borders, the Russians would either accept or invade Poland to fight the Germans.

For the Allies it offers the chance to salvage Poland Czechoslovakia, which otherwise will be sucked into the Soviet orbit

 

[Maestro]

The Sicherheitdienst (SD) was the SS's own secret intelligence service, originally formed in 1932 under the infamous Reinhardt Heydrich; it was the sole intelligence organization of the NSDAP. In many ways, it duplicated the efforts of the Abwehr (another example of Germany's needless duplication of efforts under Hitler).

The Sicherheitsdienst was basically an intelligence service of the SS and the Nazi party.

Thanks for the info.

Rommel would not have been involved with any power struggle. He had no desire to be a part of politics, he was a soldier and not a politician.

May be... But what if the army took power over the Nazi party ? Rommel could have been put there by their leader ? Kind of an "unvoluntary election", no ? Just wondering...

 

[Maestro]

Shouldn't you have another option, signs armistice with US/UK and keeps fighting only in the east?



Not so sure Merlin. Churchill would have thought very carefully about an offer, with Hitler dead then his # 1 target would be Stalin.

Suppose the Army had taken over {Beck etc} and had acted quickly to grab the top Nazis {were Himmler Goering there on July 20?} They would blame the whole mess on the top Nazi's, and offer an armictice of:

1.) withdraw to 1939 borders
2.) all combat cease in the west
3.) turn over all top Nazis
4.) agree to democratic elections.

Roosevelt would probably object, but Churchill would very much like to eliminate communism as well as the Nazis.

If the Germans offered to withdraw to 1939 borders, the Russians would either accept or invade Poland to fight the Germans.

For the Allies it offers the chance to salvage Poland Czechoslovakia, which otherwise will be sucked into the Soviet orbit

I don't think so... It is recorded that (after the death of Hitler in 1945) Jodl offered to surrender to the American, British and French... But not to the Russians. An offer that was turned down by the Western Allies... "This is not acceptable. You must surrender on all fronts." ...That's what they replied.

Jodl was then given 24 (or was it 48 ?) hours to think about it... When he came back he signed the unconditionnal surrender of the IIIrd Reich.

 

[timshatz]

The Nazis always had this pipe dream that they'd make peace with the Western Allies and get them to join in a war against the Soviets. Never going to happen.

But then again, the Nazis were full of idealogy and theories that were crap anyway (Aryan Blood, Jews as the perpetrators of the "Stab in the Back", Slavs as lessor peoples, ect).

 

[RabidAlien]

Maybe I'm just missing something (which is very likely), but I still picture Rommel as a German patriot, someone who would have temporarily stepped in to handle the military side of Germany, while leaving the civilian side to someone else or taking advice from various trusted civilian individuals. Even given the gross mismanagement of materials by Hitler, I think he could have still gotten the right stuff to the right people, put the right armies in the right spots, and really given the Allies one hell of a bloody nose. Sure, the Titanic was sinking...but he would've had the foresight to take the pumps and pull them out of the ocean and put them back into the flooded holds to gain some more time for more folks to survive.

I, too, think that, had an Armistice been signed, Russia would not have kept their agreement in some part, which would have given Germany (and Churchill) the opportunity to invade Russia again. This time with only one front to worry about, and someone like Rommel at the helm...

 

[SoD Stitch]

I don't think so... It is recorded that (after the death of Hitler in 1945) Jodl offered to surrender to the American, British and French... But not to the Russians. An offer that was turned down by the Western Allies... "This is not acceptable. You must surrender on all fronts." ...That's what they replied.

Jodl was then given 24 (or was it 48 ?) hours to think about it... When he came back he signed the unconditionnal surrender of the IIIrd Reich.

I seem to remember reading that, also. The Germans really wanted to surrender to the Western Allies, not the Russians; they knew what would happen if they had to surrender to the Russians (which they did). At the end of the War, any every German soldier that could, made over to the Western side of the lines to surrender to the Western Allies. Many of the POW's who made it over to the Western side and surrendered to the British, French, Canadian or US forces were subsequently handed over to the Russians if it was discovered that they had been fighting on the Eastern Front.

 

[JugBR]

It doesn't matter if you're popular or not, this is a police state we're talking about, not a democracy; Himmler had control of the Abwehr (indirectly, through Canaris), the Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo), the Sicherheitdienst (SD; after Heydrich's death), and the Schutzstaffel (SS), so it doesn't really matter what anybody thought, he'd just clamp down on society and take over.

Anyway, I think it would have been a struggle between Rommel, Goering and Himmler...

Goering was the president of the Nazi Party and technically the second in command, Rommel was saw as being the best to defend the Reich properly and Himmler had command over all police forces... So it would have been an easy task for Himmler to order the execution of anybody standing against him.

in fact, was a democracy, because hitler took the power by popular vote. also when he became füeher, how many complains ? you should watch the nunemberg rallys, the facist state´s control the masses by propaganda, by nationalism, not by force.

also, doesnt matter what himmler controls, göering was the reich-marshall, the second most important position of III reich. its not just go and kill him. there was a hierarchy behinds, there was the image of göering, his historic as german ww1 hero, his work in the nazy party.

himmler, in the words of hitler, was the "frei ignacio de loyola" of III Reich, his mission was to "format" the german and foreign european minds to the nazi douctrin and the SS was the nazi "Soceiety of Jesus" in this picture. i dont think its impossible göering could be influentiated or even manipulated, but he would be the new füeher anyway.

about rommel, was not the most important general in III reich, theres guderian(the father of blitzkrieg), von paulus and many others. all the german generals was great strategists. rommel was the genius that we see more because afrika korps, but i dont think he have the profile to be a fueher, because first, he wasnt very close of nazy leaders and second, because he was described as a very depressive person, wich is not good in politics.

I think Goering would have botched up the Reich worse than Hitler did. At least in the air war, which was what he was even best at. Rommel would be needed or some experienced general to lead the German army.

luftwaffe was the most modern and the most strong airforce in the most part of war. göering not just managed the luftwaffe but was behind the project of ju 87, wich was the symbol of III reich campaign in europe and the symbol of blitzkrieg.

Actually he was not all that loved. He was viewed as a fat pill popping ass hole by many. They just never viewed their opinion, because it was not a healthy thing to do.

Also you are forgetting the fact that Himmler was in control of the SS, Gestapo and all police and security forces. It would be to easy for him to take power if Hitler was assassinated.

some wise words of the fat pill popping ass hole:

too bad people doesnt listened his opinions isnt herr adler ?