Horton Flying Wing

[nuuumannn]

the last images are of a high altitude intercept and then some concepts when he went to Argentina. A number of years before the F-86 and MIG-15.

I think you might be referring to this?

Pulqui II

This is the surviving prototype of the Pulqui II designed by Tank and loosely based on his research into the Ta 183, on display at the MNA in Buenos Aires. It didn't fly before the F-86 or MiG-15 though, not until 1950, by which time both types were in service with their respective air forces. It's predecessor was this, the Pulqui I designed by Emile Dewoitine, yes, the same guy who designed the pretty wee French fighter the D.520, again, on display in Buenos Aires.

Pulqui I

 

[Koopernic]

There was no defence against an individual V2 but there was against the whole system. Not only were the launch sites and holding silos attacked, their information system was also, to progressively make them land further from the target, just about the last use of the double cross spy system in ww2.

I doubt the use of the "Double Cross" system would have remained effective as there were signs that the Germans had become wise to it and were developing technology to track the impact points (by radar, beacons, transponders and optically using telescopes)

To summarise for readers unaware: the double cross system used a double agent to misreport V1 and V2 impacts back to German intelligence.
Since the Luftwaffe had no photo reconnaissance over the UK it became possible to seduce them into offsetting their aim.

Misreporting for the V1 and V2 was different but broadly some impact points were ignored so that a bias would develop. Impact points were also recorded correctly as to time but against the wrong or previous impact hence any subsequent photo recon would always show a reported impact point.

The Fiesler Fi 103 became referred to by the German propaganda ministry as the V1 for "Vergeltungs Waffe 1" i.e. Reprisal Weapon 1 and the EMW Aggregate A4 became dubbed as the V2 for "Vergeltungs Waffe 2" i.e. Reprisal Weapon 2

The "reprisal" was against the "fiendliches luft terrors"/"enemy air terror" i.e. Air Ministry Area Bombardment Directive (British term dehousing, demoralisation etc) but their was a strategy behind it.

The idea was to so damage British cities in turn that an mutual cessation of bombing of cities could be negotiated. Of course like the British navigation systems in 1941, 42,43 that were to make the V1 and V2 precision weapons were not yet developed so this was the only choice. Werner von Braun begged to delay the V2 so that improved guidance could be developed but he was told there was no time. He had promised 1 mil accuracy which is 1 part in a 1000 (ie 300 meters at 300km range) an number he plucked out of the air because long range artillery had an accuracy of 2 mil and he simply halved it.

This is a sumary of the V2 guidance systems.

1a LEV-3 was on board all V2 luanched at targets. It consisted of two gyroscopes (Vertikant and Horizont) with potentiometer pickoffs that went to an electronic computer called the mischgeraete that controlled electrohydraulic valves that opperated the tail and exahist fins. Also present was a single PIGA accelerometer strapped to the axis of the missile. A PIGA accelerometer gives out speed as shaft turns and these shaft turns were used to sequence cam switches for tiltover, motor throttle down and motor cut off.

When tested over dozens of shots the CEP turned out to be 4.5km. In actual use against the UK the CEP was 9km but due to the double cross system it degraded to 30km.

Much of the increased error was simply faulty missiles and quality control issues.

The "V2" needed feedback of the miss distance to be accurate to account for Coriolis effects wind etc. Systems that tracked the missiles were being developed that could measure the missile to impact or near impact both optical, radar (such as Elefant Radar System)

1b About 25% of V2 launches were given a beam riding system that controlled the bearing of the launch during boost though not elevation. It halved lateral disperson.

1c A very small number of missiles had a doppler system that measured speed and controlled motor cutoff thereby increasing accuracy 10%

So all up LEV-3 had a CEP of 4.5km and with beam riding and doppler this could be reduced to an ovoid about 2km radius and 4km along the major axis.

A source of inaccuracy was gyroscope drift which was about 0.2 degrees per minute leading to about 0.22 degrees during the 70 second boost. Others include alignment of the platform in the correct direction etc. Better gyroscopes (with a vibratory dither to overcome stiction) were being developed.

2 SG-66 system had a levelled platform with 3 gyroscopes with better accuracy and pickoff, plus the axial accelerometer plus a lateral accelerometer. Probably 5 systems test flew.
The accuracy was designed to be within 500m at re-entry though winds would push that out. The leveled platform keept the more advanced gyros more accurate and also kept the accelerometers aligned.

3 the vollzirkel or full circle system guided the V2 along a pencil beam, used a transponder to measure distance and doppler to measure speed. It had tested at 50cm and 27cm beam riding but was finally being implemented as a 9cm system. Its accuracy was to be 500m the same as SG-66.

Hence the German Army was close to getting the V2's accuracy to 500m which is much better than 3c H2S.

4 The winged A4b or winged V2 had a system called Wasserspiegel (Aquarius Mirror) which used large side lying antenna, transponders for range. It's accuracy would have been about 20-30m I i.e. extremely precise) with the missile guided to impact or at least until it disappeared below the horizon. It could use an SG-66 like system that received a midcourse update with inertial for final thereby avoiding jamming.

Production plans for V2 were 1000 with an eventual target of 4000-5000/month.'

The V1 simply used a compass heading and an anemometer to measure air distance so the CEP was poor. However 5% of V1 carried a Ewald-I transponder to track the missile and allow the aim to be corrected. Toward the end of the V1 campaign 50% of V1 had Ewald-I suggesting that double cross system was suspected.

5 Ewald-II was a systemin which the transponder emitted a single chirped pulse that was detected by 3 ground stations which used time difference to calculate V1 position. A course correction was to be sent out which recorded the correction on a magnetic tape loop. This would get V1 accuracy to about 2km. Ground stations were being built in 1945. The system was to be used on the long range versions of the V1 (mainly disposable turbojet powerted.

Willy Messerschmitt wrote to his friend Robert Lusser (who had designed the Me 109) and then moved over to Fiesler via Heinkel to designe the Fi 103. Messerschmitt wanted to build up to 100,000 V1/month and had seriously investigated the issue. It seems he was being taken seriously.

Hence had the D-day invasion not occurred in 1944:

There could by 1945 be up to 5000 V2 launched against Britain per month and up to 100,000/month V2. Many would have ranges of 650km to 400 miles.
Even if only 2500/month and 20,000 V2 it would lay waste to Britain's major cities.

From a moral perspective it was no different from the Area Bombardment Directive issued to bomber command.

Ofcourse to German plan was to offer a truce from city bombing.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ofcourse to German plan was to offer a truce from city bombing.

Where might I read more about this?

 

[special ed]

One book touched on the early V-1 program and commented one of the London newspapers had been convinced to report many of the V-1s flew over the city to crash north of London which for a time caused the V-1s to fall short of the city after German adjustment. Another book discussing concentration labor commented the prisoners often urinated on gyros and other instruments during construction.

 

[GrauGeist]

Where might I read more about this?

It's a rather long read, but this will provide details on the German's hope for a negotiated peace with Britain.

I apologize that it's Wiki, but it does give a good overview.
Operation Sea Lion - Wikipedia

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's a rather long read, but this will provide details on the German's hope for a negotiated peace with Britain.

I apologize that it's Wiki, but it does give a good overview.
Operation Sea Lion - Wikipedia

I know Germany sent out peace-feelers. I was asking specifically about the desire to reach an accord to stop city-bombing. I've read about the war for many, many years, and have not com across that particular assertion before.

 

[nuuumannn]

To summarise for readers unaware: the double cross system used a double agent to misreport V1 and V2 impacts back to German intelligence.
Since the Luftwaffe had no photo reconnaissance over the UK it became possible to seduce them into offsetting their aim.

The Double Cross system was a counter-intelligence operation to get German agents in Britain to either turn themselves in or work for the British throughout the war, not just specifically surrounding the V 1or V 2 effort. It was entirely effective and had a 100 percent success rate in terms of nullifying the effectiveness of German agents in Britain, so it was far more effective than even denying German reconnaissance aircraft the ability to do their jobs. Every single agent sent by the Germans either became a double agent or became a POW. One committed suicide.

 

[pbehn]

The Double Cross system was a counter-intelligence operation to get German agents in Britain to either turn themselves in or work for the British throughout the war, not just specifically surrounding the V 1or V 2 effort. It was entirely effective and had a 100 percent success rate in terms of nullifying the effectiveness of German agents in Britain, so it was far more effective than even denying German reconnaissance aircraft the ability to do their jobs. Every single agent sent by the Germans either became a double agent or became a POW. One committed suicide.

At least one was executed, refused to "turn", they were not combatants under the Geneva convention. When there was a difference between the science of transponders on V1 and the reported information from spies, the "spies" had to be believed, the alternative was too horrible to contemplate.

 

[nuuumannn]

At least one was executed, refused to "turn", they were not combatants under the Geneva convention.

Hm, yes, they aren't strictly 'POWs', but since espionage is a crime under British law, in wartime they are subject to harsh penalties, which includes execution. The treatment these guys got was pretty rough. There was a detention centre on the outskirts of London where the German agents captured were sent, run by a particularly ruthless Scot who was, to all intents and purposes good at his job.

 

[pbehn]

I know Germany sent out peace-feelers. I was asking specifically about the desire to reach an accord to stop city-bombing. I've read about the war for many, many years, and have not com across that particular assertion before.

Ignoring the obvious fact that no one could bomb with precision, Adolf held for himself control of bombing London it required his say so. Bombs dropped on London trying to attack Croydon airfield, and from that the British bombed Berlin in reprisal, which gave Adolf grounds to allow bombing London. Adolf may have had ideas about coming to some accord about bombing cities, but by the time V1 and V2 attacks started he was well on the way to madness.




Passage of time changes things, at the time Croydon was outside London, now it is certainly in it. International travel by air from London started there but now you wouldn't believe it ever had its own airport.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ignoring the obvious fact that no one could bomb with precision, Adolf held for himself control of bombing London it required his say so. Bombs dropped on London trying to attack Croydon airfield, and from that the British bombed Berlin in reprisal, which gave Adolf grounds to allow bombing London. Passage of time changes things, at the time Croydon was outside London, now it is certainly in it. International travel by air from London started there but now you wouldn't believe it ever had its own airport.

Well, I hadn't mentioned precision at all. I was asking specifically about German desires to offer a pause or cease-fire in the bombing of cities. I've never read that before and am curious about that particular aspect:

Ofcourse to German plan was to offer a truce from city bombing.

 

[nuuumannn]

Croydon's iconic tower today. It's an office complex cum function centre.

2907 Croydon Tower

In the adjacent park, remnants of Croydon's runways can be found.

2907 Croydon runway remains

The aim was always to bomb London and although Hitler gave approval, the decision was made to do so at that particular time, not because the RAF bombed Berlin as is often portrayed - this was a propaganda cover as an act of 'justification' for doing so, but because Goring believed that resistance from Fighter Command was going to be minimal. He believed the intel figures that he was being fed by Beppo Schmid about the size and disposition of the RAF, which was woefully inaccurate.

 

[firedup]

What Northrup did come up with is given the aircrafts 20% reduction in radar cross section, at 50 feet off the deck coming across the channel at 600 knots, that by the time the English spotted it they had no more than 8 minutes to get something in the air to - try - to intercept.Given the fact that it outperformed the ME 262 in mock combat good luck - That full scale mock up is at the San Diego Air and Space Museum along with a full size replica of Erich Hartmanns black tulip nosed ME 109.. Great Stuff ..

 

[GrauGeist]

Given the fact that it outperformed the ME 262 in mock combat good luck

The Me262 wasn't a fighter, it was a "heavy fighter", meaning interceptor, so *if* the reported dog fight ever happened between the two (which has been debated for years), then the Ho.IX may have been able to best it.

 

[CAVU Mark]

Northrop built an exact replica to study it's cross section and I beleive National Geographic documented it.

The replicate hangs in the San Diego Air and Space Museum.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What Northrup did come up with is given the aircrafts 20% reduction in radar cross section, at 50 feet off the deck coming across the channel at 600 knots, that by the time the English spotted it they had no more than 8 minutes to get something in the air to - try - to intercept.Given the fact that it outperformed the ME 262 in mock combat good luck - That full scale mock up is at the San Diego Air and Space Museum along with a full size replica of Erich Hartmanns black tulip nosed ME 109.. Great Stuff ..

Basically you're correct but there's no way to accurately determine how this would go down in an actual combat situation. Yes, the RCS would be considerably less, the aircraft still had components and features that would still make it "trackable." 20% RCS reduction and an 8 minute intercept time is only a guesstimate.

 

[tyrodtom]

What Northrup did come up with is given the aircrafts 20% reduction in radar cross section, at 50 feet off the deck coming across the channel at 600 knots, that by the time the English spotted it they had no more than 8 minutes to get something in the air to - try - to intercept.Given the fact that it outperformed the ME 262 in mock combat good luck - That full scale mock up is at the San Diego Air and Space Museum along with a full size replica of Erich Hartmanns black tulip nosed ME 109.. Great Stuff ..

I've always been extremely skeptical about the tale of anyone having a mock combat with with a brand new concept of a aircraft on it's second flight.
And how many flights did it make ? 3 !

I guess that's why we call it the Wunderwaffe .

 

[pbehn]

What Northrup did come up with is given the aircrafts 20% reduction in radar cross section, at 50 feet off the deck coming across the channel at 600 knots, that by the time the English spotted it they had no more than 8 minutes to get something in the air to - try - to intercept.Given the fact that it outperformed the ME 262 in mock combat good luck - That full scale mock up is at the San Diego Air and Space Museum along with a full size replica of Erich Hartmanns black tulip nosed ME 109.. Great Stuff ..

You only have to do 240MPH to cross the channel in 5 minutes?

 

[SaparotRob]

It does if one is vigorously flapping one's arms.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You only have to do 240MPH to cross the channel in 5 minutes?

At the narrowest point?