How dangerous was it to fly ww2 era aircraft even without ever seeing combat.

[gumbyk]

A lot of the danger wasn't necessarily inherent to the aircraft or training.
Don't forget, you had 18-20 year old guys strapping on 2000 Hp aircraft and taking them to (and sometimes beyond) their limits. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

[pbehn]

Life and death was viewed differently. Laws had to be brought in to make people drive with seatbelts and stop them driving with bald tyres. In motor sports and air displays pilots and spectators being killed was just accepted. The highest level of road deaths in UK was during WW2 despite hardly anyone having a car or fuel compared to present day.

 

[tyrodtom]

Those high traffic deaths in WW2 Britain was possible them adapting to the new blackout rules imposed for night driving ?
The rates went down pretty quick as the war went on.

 

[pbehn]

Those high traffic deaths in WW2 Britain was possible them adapting to the new blackout rules imposed for night driving ?
The rates went down pretty quick as the war went on.

Undoubtedly, it is just a staggering number considering the number of vehicles actually on the road, my wifes great uncle was killed by a bus in London while on leave in the blackout. My main point was how routine accidental death was treated, although I think questions were asked in USA at a high level about aircraft training accidents (Congress?).

 

[Greg Boeser]

Terence Kelly, in Nine Lives of a Fighter Pilot reports that 10% of pilots in basic flight school were killed.

 

[fliger747]

My dad said only 5% in his group. Time for a safety award?

 

[pbehn]

Lots of statistics here …….United States World War II Aircraft Loss Statistics during Flight Training

 

[bobbysocks]

13 out of 81 is 16% of those who were killed. But the OP was saying that 10% of ALL pilots were killed in accidents (not just in training). That is presumably much higher.
Thanks for the mention of Bud Anderson - I will take a look, since I'm trying to get a better handle on accident rates in different air forces and different years.

If you include all accidents then it goes WAY up!! there were several mid air collisions and several more weather related deaths. there was a guy in my dad's outfit that was from the same hometown. he was coming back from a mission in heavy fog and was letting down easy but unfortunately the fog went to the ground. he probably would have survived but he didnt have his harness tight and clunked his head off of the gunsite...which killed him. Another pilot was coming across the channel and went right into the cliff of dover thinking it was a fog bank or it was obscured by fog. One guy, returning on his LAST mission hotdogged it by putting on an airshow. he buzzed the field and tried to loop...suffice it to say he was too low. that doesnt include wing, tail and other structural failures....I am sure other FGs were about the same.

 

[bobbysocks]

An addendum to my posts. The info I gleaned from Bud Anderson's site is all ETO stats. Meaning they were overseas and while in combat and already had probably 300+ hours of experience. So you are having that high rate of accidents from experienced pilots. I have nothing about fatalities during basic flight to advanced training. I do remember my dad talking about doing long cross countries in P40s and several of the boys in his class never came home. The routes usually took them over the Okefenokee swamp. So, there are probably a couple dozen or more P40s hidden in the muck of that swamp. The wash out rate was pretty decent too. If someone washed out they would go to bomber groups as gunners, navigators, etc....some might have made multi engine pilots...

 

[Elmas]

Life and death was viewed differently. Laws had to be brought in to make people drive with seatbelts and stop them driving with bald tyres. In motor sports and air displays pilots and spectators being killed was just accepted. The highest level of road deaths in UK was during WW2 despite hardly anyone having a car or fuel compared to present day.



View attachment 536564

Racing his Bentley at breakneck speed between his High Wycombe headquarters and the Air Ministry during World War II, Air Marshal Arthur Travers Harris was the bane of motorcycle policemen on the London road.
Late one night, a constable stopped him and said reproachfully, "You might have killed somebody, sir."
Snapped Harris, "Young man, I kill thousands of people every night!"

 

[mad_max]

As I listened to a video of [Bob] Peterson he mentioned that flying a WW2 aircraft was flying a high performance machine and they would bite you if you weren't attentive. My father who was a Navy Pilot Instructor said the worst time for a low time pilot was around 200-250 hours of flight time. That's the time that young pilot's thought they had complete control/understanding of their aircraft and they would let their heads get big.

 

[GrauGeist]

Ages ago, when I was learning to fly, I was lectured by one of my mentors (I had several, long story), but he was a Veteran Marine Pilot of VMF 212 (PTO) and he said "boy, this machine will kill you if you allow it. It is up to you to ensure that this machine does not get it's way".
Leave it to a Marine to put things into perspective

 

[P-39 Expert]

As I listened to a video of [Bob] Peterson he mentioned that flying a WW2 aircraft was flying a high performance machine and they would bite you if you weren't attentive. My father who was a Navy Pilot Instructor said the worst time for a low time pilot was around 200-250 hours of flight time. That's the time that young pilot's thought they had complete control/understanding of their aircraft and they would let their heads get big.

200 hours is what army pilots had upon graduation. I guess they were ready to go.

 

[Barrett]

Second the notion about Thomas P's two sources. In 2009 I wrote a Flight Journal article titled "The Cost of Doing Business" largely based on the AAF statistical digest showing accident rates for every type. The "leading" types were all Allison powered, FWIW. But A-36, P-39, P-40, P-38 easily led the pack. I tried finding a comparable USN document but it does not exist, if ever it did. BTW: the article still is circulated by email without attribution sheesh...

 

[Jug Pilot]

We have touched on this before, to fly or not. I think it was GregP who said if you own the plane, it's up to you. I have to agree with that.

Cheers,
Biff

How I checked out in a P-47, My first test was that I had to fly the T-6 from the back seat, not a problem for me. Then spent more than a few days sitting in the P-47 cockpit and studying the P-47 Manual. Nest came a blindfolded test where items were called out and I had to touch them or locate them, Mag switch, gear handle, flap handle, throttle, etc. Then the actual first time flight with the Group Commander as my wing man. A beautiful take off and some air work followed. Then the fun part ??? the 360 deg approach to landing. As I lined up with the runway and off to my left was a fast approaching rain squall driftng across the runway. My reaction was that this did not look like good conditions for the first landing, there was no hesitation as I poured on the coal, cleaned up the airplane and came around for a second 360 overhead. Meanwhile my instructor wingman was on me for going around like I did. In retrospect, he probably nodded in approval. (Gusty x-winds, poor visibility, wet runway, poor braking etc ) My take away was that I absolutely loved the P-47 (JUG) and in many subsequent flights, as all good fighter pilots do, I went to the edge of the envelope and beyond, Testing my and the airplanes limits. Let me know if you want to hear more ???

 

[michael rauls]

How I checked out in a P-47, My first test was that I had to fly the T-6 from the back seat, not a problem for me. Then spent more than a few days sitting in the P-47 cockpit and studying the P-47 Manual. Nest came a blindfolded test where items were called out and I had to touch them or locate them, Mag switch, gear handle, flap handle, throttle, etc. Then the actual first time flight with the Group Commander as my wing man. A beautiful take off and some air work followed. Then the fun part ??? the 360 deg approach to landing. As I lined up with the runway and off to my left was a fast approaching rain squall driftng across the runway. My reaction was that this did not look like good conditions for the first landing, there was no hesitation as I poured on the coal, cleaned up the airplane and came around for a second 360 overhead. Meanwhile my instructor wingman was on me for going around like I did. In retrospect, he probably nodded in approval. (Gusty x-winds, poor visibility, wet runway, poor braking etc ) My take away was that I absolutely loved the P-47 (JUG) and in many subsequent flights, as all good fighter pilots do, I went to the edge of the envelope and beyond, Testing my and the airplanes limits. Let me know if you want to hear more ???

I for one would love to hear any stories anybody has about flying old warbirds.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey guys,

I used to hang out with some older gentlemen, several of whom flew in WWII. A couple of them mentioned that they had trained in the P-40 just before they were assigned to their initial operational types (if I am using the term correctly). I have always assumed from this and other things they said that the use of th P-40 as a high performance training aircraft was probably the cause of the unusually high accident rate (if I am reading the statistical digest data correctly the P-40 had the 2nd highest accident rate and the highest number of accidents. The A-36 possibly being an aberration due to the relatively low numbers of service aircraft). Does anyone know for sure if this is correct?

 

[GrauGeist]

Hey guys,

I used to hang out with some older gentlemen, several of whom flew in WWII. A couple of them mentioned that they had trained in the P-40 just before they were assigned to their initial operational types (if I am using the term correctly). I have always assumed from this and other things they said that the use of th P-40 as a high performance training aircraft was probably the cause of the unusually high accident rate (if I am reading the statistical digest data correctly the P-40 had the 2nd highest accident rate and the highest number of accidents. The A-36 possibly being an aberration due to the relatively low numbers of service aircraft). Does anyone know for sure if this is correct?

By saying "A-36", I'm assuming you mean the P-36, and it was a very responsive, pilot friendly aircraft.
The pilots who flew the P-36 had nothing but high praise for it's performance and agility.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey GrauGeist,

At first I thought that was what they meant also, and it made me scratch my head and wonder if what I had read about the handling of the P-36 was incorrect. But no, the A-36 I am referring to is an early P-51 variant, nicknamed 'Apache', modified for dive-bombing and ground attack.

 

[The Basket]

While at my local church graveyard I came across a military headstone.
Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve Aged 19
HMS Blackcap RNAS Stretton
Died 1944.
I did some research and the kid was killed on take off.
Freedom ain't free.

RNAS Stretton has long closed but you can still see the runway.
Google Earth