How effective do you think airborne forces were in the war?

First off, my Cadet Commander isn't even an officer right now. He's been going through basic training like any other soldier would.

Besides, whats happened to the spirit?! You'd think the moral would be high?

P38 Pilot said:

First off, my Cadet Commander isn't even an officer right now.

Click to expand...

Cadet Commanders can not have gone through basic training because they are Cadets. Cadets are high school children not soldiers.

P38 Pilot said:

He's been going through basic training like any other soldier would.

Click to expand...

First off you said Battalion Commander in your last post. BN Commanders are officers. Most officers dont go through Basic Training. Trust me I know...

P38 Pilot said:

Besides, whats happened to the spirit?! You'd think the moral would be high?

Click to expand...

You know why soldiers hate saying that word, because it steels your identity. They force it down your throat from day one in Basic Training. The only time we say it is when we have to, to make some officer happy...

As for your moral. Can you tell me why the moral would be high?

Let me give you a scenerio and you tell me if your moral would be high.

You have been sent to some small country to keep them from killing themselves. You have not seen your wife or your kids for 10 months now. You have not been intimate with a woman for 10 months now. You have not had a good decent home cooked meal in about 10 months now. You have not had a nice cold beer for 10 months now. 10 months is over and you finally get to go home. Your making up for the lost time that you had over the last 10 months and then you get the word 1 month later that you are going to field for 45 days to train up for something else (training is important but you would still like a little time off before you go back to the field). You spend you 45 days in the field and you come home for a week and are told you are going to annual gunnery (if 10 months of honing your marksman skills was not eneogh) for 30 days. You get back from gunnery and they tell you to go and take leave and spend time with your family because you are going to the ****ing **** hole of Iraq for 14 months in a month.

Yeah moral was really great after that one P38. You try spending 24 months out 30 away from your loved ones and see how your moral is.

The majority of the army feels this way right now. The army is burnt out and there is no relief....

You think the military is the greatest thing since bread and butter but you dont understand the sacrifice that comes with it.

You think you will be prepared? Discipline isn't enough. Trust Adler, he speaks the truth, he knows. He has been there, and still is there. I think there are plenty of us here that have told you there is a huge difference between thinking you are ready and really being ready. Whatever you think, when the first bullets start to fly, you are in a world of sh*t. How you respond to it comes from within, and you cannot say with any truth that you are ready for it.

Still in it for 19 more days!

Im almost there!

Hang tight. We used to say 18 days and a bag drag. You outprocessing there, or are they shipping you stateside for your outprocessing?

Nope I will outprocess in Germany and get out in Germany. I will continue to work on the post that I was on in the military but as a civilian.

Damn it is a wiered feeling. Got my last haircut a few weeks ago. Letting it grow out!

I think airborne forces where effective. This is becase of a few reasons. One is in D-day when they where scatterd about everywhere and the germans near Utah beach where on a 'wild goose chase' looking for them and therefore not defending the beach. Another is that they helped capture bridges, coasways and roads that where vital in getting off the beachead quickly. And the allies also dropped loads of dummys (although technicly they were not really paratroops) which made the germans think there where thousands of men behind their lines and this, in addition to the real paras, saved many lives on D-day

In my opinion they were moderatley succesful, Market Garden was a failure but D-day and Husky were success. Also, I didn't know we used Paratroopers in Torch.

Yes the first major US paradrop was during Operation Torch. It did not turn out too well though. The 509th dropped but was scattered all over N. Africa including there equipment and was essentially a failure.

I think the whole idea we can agree on is that paratroopers are effective as long as they are backed up. Where they are insufficiently backed up and supported is where you get losses like Crete. Paratroopers are good for achieving certain objectives that need to be done fast and rapidly. I thought during the 1991 Gulf War they were used for destroying Scuds. Paratroopers are good for silent stealth opperations. A lot of the time if they encounter the enemy it already means that their mission has probably failed anyway. Although having said that Operation Pegasus was one of those great successes where the Paratroopers managed to take their targets from the Germans who had had time to dig in and organize defences. Therefore the thing with Crete was that the mission was already blown, but the Germans went along with it anyway... That was the reason why German casualities were so high, because the British were already looking for paradropping Germans. Where there is no alert however they can be very effective, I think. It is more psychological impact on the defending forces, that somewhere, somehow some paratrooper could drop out of the sky to kill them...

HealzDevo said:

I thought during the 1991 Gulf War they were used for destroying Scuds.

Click to expand...

Those were not Airborne troops. They were SAS, Navy SEALS, and Special Forces.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Yes the first major US paradrop was during Operation Torch. It did not turn out too well though. The 509th dropped but was scattered all over N. Africa including there equipment and was essentially a failure.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Adler.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I feel that in some cases they were very effective and other times they were not so effective. Depends on what they were used for.

In the beginning of the war the Germans used airborne troops with great success in the invasion of Norway and Denmark in Operation Weserübung.
Airborne troops from the Brandenburg Regiment were succesfully dropped into France to secure bridges.

In Belgium a small group of German Airborne troops landed on top of the Belgian fortress of Eben Emael on the morning of May 10, 1940 and it was captured in a matter of hours. This attack was led by only NCOs and was a complete success with minimal casualties to the German side.

Perhaps the German airborne forces greatest victory was Crete. This also was there worst time for losses as well.

Casulties were so high, that Hitler forbade there use on large scale operations.

The British and the US used airborne effective only small commando raids throughout the war.

With heavy casualties the US 101st and 82nd Airborne were very pivital in the D-Day victory, Operation Giant II, and Operation Husky.

There were large scale failures as well:

Operation Market Garden
509th Parachute Regiments drop during Operation Torch

Click to expand...

what actually happend in the drops during oparation torch? I never knew there was any

The Germans new a few facts about Crete.

1. The Kiwis Aussies and Greek forces were under equipped having left most heavy gear and personal kit in Greece.

2. The RAF pressence was pitiful.

3. The Royal Navy could do little to nothing during daylight due to air supremacy.

The German attack was started by massive air strikes, well not more than had been going on for some time, followed by Gliders in 22 Btn positions around Maleme airfield.

Kiwi engineers had requested some days before the attack to be allowed to plough lines across the airfield and install contact and command detonate mines to deny the airfield to the germans from the air.

This was refused / delayed by British HQ as they thought they MIGHT want to use the airfield themselves later.

22 Btn found itself without coms, and in need of reinforcment, 23 Btn should have been moved up , but did not, causing 22 to withdraw to its B company positions, attempt a counter attack, and the have to fall back further due to coms problems and isolation.

Lt Col Andrews was later castigated for his decisons, but the reality of the day shows it to be poor equipment and air cover solely that enabled the Germans to gain the hold they did without being wiped out.

From the official history.

Even as they dropped they were within range and the crackle of rifle fire and Bren guns rose to a crescendo Wildly waving their legs, some already firing their Schmeissers, the parachutists came down, in the terraced vineyards, crashing through the peaceful olive boughs, in the yards of houses, on roofs, in the open fields where the short barley hid them. Many found graves where they found earth. Others, ridding themselves of their harness, crept cautiously in search of comrades, only to meet enemies. East of the airfield or in Galatas they were, more often than not, in the middle of the defenders and few were to escape. But where they landed out of range—as in the Aghya plain or west of the Tavronitis—there was the chance to collect more weapons and ammunition from the canisters, to organise in their sections, to attack. The day had indeed begun.

-----

The plan of the enemy attack in the Maleme sector will be more clearly grasped if the units and their objectives are set out in tabular form:

Gliders
Unit Commander Landing place and objective
Elements of HQ Assault Regt Maj Braun South of Tavronitis bridge
Elements of III Bn (9 gliders)
HQ I Bn 3 and 4 Coys (? 30 gliders) Maj Koch Mouth of Tavronitis (3 Coy)
Point 107 (HQ Bn and 4 Coy)
Paratroops
II Bn (5, 6, 7, 8 Coys) Maj Stentzler South of Kolimbari
Muerbe Detachment (72 men) Lt Muerbe 3 miles east of Kastelli
III Bn (9, 10, 11, 12 Coys) Maj Scherber East of Maleme airfield along road to Platanias
IV Bn Capt Gericke
13 Coy (infantry guns) West of Tavronitis bridge
14 Coy (A-tk guns) West of Tavronitis bridge
15 Coy West of Tavronitis bridge
16 Coy2 South-west of Point 107

By 1800 the following occured.

Lieutenant-Colonel Andrew (22 Btn) now had to make up his mind what to do. He again got in touch with Brigade HQ by wireless and told Brigadier Hargest that the counter-attack with tanks had failed. He said he had no further resources and that as no support from 23 Battalion had come he would have to withdraw. Hargest replied: 'If you must, you must.' But at this time, according to Andrew, by 'withdrawal' he did not mean withdrawal right away from the airfield but only as far as the ridge held by B Company. And presumably Hargest understood him in this sense.


Source
I: Maleme and 22 Battalion | NZETC

There were three jumps in the PTO that I know were effective.

1) Nadzab in New Guinie, in which they occupied an excellent plateau that was developed into a large Allied airbase

2) Noemfor Island (Dutch New Guinie) in which they occupied the island that was needed as an airbase

3) Corregidore Island (PI) in which they surprised the whole Japanese garrison on this heavily fortified island, and defeated them. (Took a few days though)

Joe2 said:

what actually happend in the drops during oparation torch? I never knew there was any

Click to expand...

The US Army 509th Parachute Infantry BN flew from England through Spain with the intent of jumping near Oran and capturing the airfields at Tafarquay and Youk-Les-Bains.

The jump was a partial failure and was marked by problems in planning, navigation and communication.

The 509th did not jump on there target, the paratroopers were scattered throughout the area and several planes were forced to ditch into the desert. The airfields were taken however in the end.

The 509th was the first US Airbone unit and conducted the first US airborne operation during Operation Torch.

What I was meaning when I was calling them airborne troops is that they were dropped in from air or a helicopter and given an objective to secure based on intelligence. If that doesn't sound like what the idea for the WW2 Airborne Troops in a lot of missions was, I don't know what is... All I was saying was that was a modern example of this type of mission of small groups going in at speed to destroy targets. We are talking about the effectiveness of airborne forces in the war. I know it is a modern example, but hell it illustrates that there was at least something to the quick and fast air insertion type mission that it is still being used this many years after WW2.