How good are modern Russian Jet compared to western designs?

[ARTESH]

Grippen is 55% made out of US components - Swedes are unable to sell this airplane without permission from US.....

I do not know about details. I just know that there were a series of talkings about "renewals" in AF, from bases to air defence systems, radars and anything else.

And surely all of these "visits" were happened bu US's Green Light, otherwise, no country would let "outsiders", or even "compatriots" to active military sites, airbases included.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I more wonder how Russian fighters compare to their Chinese knock-offs. I suspect the student has surpassed the master.

Su-27 vs. Shenyang J-11
Su-30 vs. Shenyang J-16

How China made the J-16 fighter better than the Su-30

Derived from the Sukhoi fighter jet, Shenyang's aircraft has a higher capacity and is currently one of the most important assets of PLAAF

www.airdatanews.com

Not related, but Chengdu J-20 vs. Sukhoi Su-57?

 

[J_P_C]

I more wonder how Russian fighters compare to their Chinese knock-offs. I suspect the student has surpassed the master.

Su-27 vs. Shenyang J-11
Su-30 vs. Shenyang J-16

How China made the J-16 fighter better than the Su-30

Derived from the Sukhoi fighter jet, Shenyang's aircraft has a higher capacity and is currently one of the most important assets of PLAAF

www.airdatanews.com

Not related, but Chengdu J-20 vs. Sukhoi Su-57?

try to compare J-20 with MiG 1.44 - not exactly the same but similarities are "easily noticeable" i would say...
Probably each of pairs has advantages and similarities as well differences. But i will be surprised if this is like striking differences. Probably Russians and Chinese are sharing many the same problems - outdated engines (with key technologies located in Ukraine), quality issues which is resulting in problems with stealth technology implementation. Probably russians are slightly better in radar stuff (i mean analog part of radar gear), IR detectors and A/A weapon but Chinese presenting much higher level in a term of software and navigation equipment - by the way - i wouldn't call Air Data News website very credible source of information - especially in this matter.

 

[RogerdeLluria]

"I suspect the student has surpassed the master."

In the end it's all about resources. China GDP is 10-12x that of Russia. Although china devotes only 5% GDP to defense vs more than 10% for Russia. China defense budged is 4-5x that of Russia.
The only aspect where China still lags behind is engines, but i guess its a matter of time.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I more wonder how Russian fighters compare to their Chinese knock-offs. I suspect the student has surpassed the master.

Su-27 vs. Shenyang J-11
Su-30 vs. Shenyang J-16

How China made the J-16 fighter better than the Su-30

Derived from the Sukhoi fighter jet, Shenyang's aircraft has a higher capacity and is currently one of the most important assets of PLAAF

www.airdatanews.com

Not related, but Chengdu J-20 vs. Sukhoi Su-57?

A colleague who once worked for a not-to-be-named intelligence agency commented to me that Chinese avionics and human factors considerations in their Flanker reworks are a full generation ahead of their Russian counterparts. The J-11 and J-16 have cockpits stuffed full of MFDs and their avionics are - reportedly - mostly derived from Western civil systems from the late 1990s/early 2000s. They also have some structural differences - more composites and some internal structure changes - which cut several hundred kgs in weight from the airframes.

The big unknown for me are the engines (Shenyang WS-10). China has struggled for a long time with issues around thrust, reliability and operating life. The WS-10 is based off the core architecture of the CFM56, a 1980s civil airliner engine which is about as reliable as they come, and some other technology borrowed from the AL-31.

The WS-10 has been in development for better than 30 years at this point. The initial versions were reputed to have TBOs as low as 30 to 40 hours (mostly because of problems with erosion/disintegration of fan blades and production quality issues), engine lives under 200 hours and demanded as many as 15 man hours of maintenance for every hour of flight.

China reportedly 'borrowed' fan blade technology from Rolls-Royce in the mid 2010s, which has solved some of the problems. But, even the more mature WS-10B and WS-10C are reported to be maintenance hogs. Last I read, the WS-10B was roughly at AL-31FM reliability levels - i.e. about the same as an engine developed in the Soviet Union in the 1970s and reworked in Russia during the 1990s. Ballpark figures of life before rebuild of anywhere between 250 to 400 hours and full engine life of 1000 to 2000 hours.

 

[J_P_C]

A colleague who once worked for a not-to-be-named intelligence agency commented to me that Chinese avionics and human factors considerations in their Flanker reworks are a full generation ahead of their Russian counterparts. The J-11 and J-16 have cockpits stuffed full of MFDs and their avionics are - reportedly - mostly derived from Western civil systems from the late 1990s/early 2000s. They also have some structural differences - more composites and some internal structure changes - which cut several hundred kgs in weight from the airframes.

The big unknown for me are the engines (Shenyang WS-10). China has struggled for a long time with issues around thrust, reliability and operating life. The WS-10 is based off the core architecture of the CFM56, a 1980s civil airliner engine which is about as reliable as they come, and some other technology borrowed from the AL-31.

The WS-10 has been in development for better than 30 years at this point. The initial versions were reputed to have TBOs as low as 30 to 40 hours (mostly because of problems with erosion/disintegration of fan blades and production quality issues), engine lives under 200 hours and demanded as many as 15 man hours of maintenance for every hour of flight.

China reportedly 'borrowed' fan blade technology from Rolls-Royce in the mid 2010s, which has solved some of the problems. But, even the more mature WS-10B and WS-10C are reported to be maintenance hogs. Last I read, the WS-10B was roughly at AL-31FM reliability levels - i.e. about the same as an engine developed in the Soviet Union in the 1970s and reworked in Russia during the 1990s. Ballpark figures of life before rebuild of anywhere between 250 to 400 hours and full engine life of 1000 to 2000 hours.

Sharing components and solution between military and commercial engines is nothing unusual. Especially cfm-56 is father of at least two families of military engines - F110 and M88. Everything comes to the very tiny details in the engine design - simply coping large components will not work - magic is buried in materials, design of cooling system, ACC, structural resonance and surge preventing, and in general engine control system - coping of this in simple reverse engineering process is close to impossible - of course you may learn this on your own mistakes but it will consume serious amount of time and equally reasonable amount of money...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Sharing components and solution between military and commercial engines is nothing unusual.

I wasn't implying that it was. What is unusual is for country to base an engine on another that they don't (nominally) possess the intellectual property for.

Especially cfm-56 is father of at least two families of military engines - F110 and M88.

And the core technology of theCFM56 itself is an outgrowth of an earlier military engine - the F101.

Everything comes to the very tiny details in the engine design - simply coping large components will not work - magic is buried in materials, design of cooling system, ACC, structural resonance and surge preventing, and in general engine control system - coping of this in simple reverse engineering process is close to impossible - of course you may learn this on your own mistakes but it will consume serious amount of time and equally reasonable amount of money...

Totally agree. Which is one of the reasons that the WS-10 had such a prolonged gestation. Reverse engineering something as demanding as a high bypass turbofan is not a remotely simple task, even for civil applications.

Then again, building a new engine from scratch is also difficult. The CJ-1000 for the C919 started development about 2010 and is unlikely to see certification until 2025 or 2026 (even with an accelerated test programme).

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wonder what aircraft the Russian Air Force will be fielding in 2033. Ten years from now the Su 27-33 that survived the Ukrainian War will need replacing.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

I wonder what aircraft the Russian Air Force will be fielding in 2033. Ten years from now the Su 27-33 that survived the Ukrainian War will need replacing.

Hopefully not F-35 or J-20.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wonder what aircraft the Russian Air Force will be fielding in 2033. Ten years from now the Su 27-33 that survived the Ukrainian War will need replacing.

Their production numbers spell as dismal future, especially under a sanctions regime.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Their production numbers spell as dismal future, especially under a sanctions regime.

And what of their nuclear submarine fleet? They're one neglected system's failure away from another Kursk. What's their naval budget looking like as the army gobbles up the rubles.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm looking forward to see what Antonov comes up with in the future.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

And what of their nuclear submarine fleet? They're one neglected system's failure away from another Kursk. What's their naval budget looking like as the army gobbles up the rubles.

Putin has mortgaged his country's future with this war.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Putin has mortgaged his country's future with this war.

I find it amazing that at least a hundred thousand families in Russia have seen their sons killed or wounded and no one is marching on the Kremlin. When the Kursk went down there were riots in Russia and Putin himself was at risk. Nowadays, nothing?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I find it amazing that at least a hundred thousand families in Russia have seen their sons killed or wounded and no one is marching on the Kremlin. When the Kursk went down there were riots in Russia and Putin himself was at risk. Nowadays, nothing?

To be fair, the laws governing dissent and free expression in Russia are much more rigorous now compared to then --partly as a result of the pushback regarding the loss of Kursk.

 

[RogerdeLluria]

I find it amazing that at least a hundred thousand families in Russia have seen their sons killed or wounded and no one is marching on the Kremlin. When the Kursk went down there were riots in Russia and Putin himself was at risk. Nowadays, nothing?

Russia was a very different country back then. Worth reading this interview to lawyer Boris Kuznetsov. He represented the families of 55 of the drowned Kursk seamen. Now he has political asylum in the United States.

Kursk Anniversary: Submarine Disaster Was Putin's 'First Lie'

Fifteen years after the tragic sinking of the Kursk nuclear submarine with the loss of 118 lives, lawyer Boris Kuznetsov -- who represented the families of 55 of the victims -- is still fighting to get the whole story out.

www.rferl.org

When a visibly rattled Putin met with the wives and families of Kursk seamen on August 22, 2000, no one was afraid to scream at him and accuse him of incompetence or worse. That encounter may have been "the worst moment" of Putin's life -- and he immediately set out to make sure he would never face anything like it again.

 

[Admiral Beez]

How good can a MiG-29/35 get?

The Indian MiG-29UPG looks sharp, for example.

First Indian Purchase of New MiG-29s in 30 Years

The Indian Ministry of Defense on Thursday cleared a long-pending deal to acquire 21 MiG-29 fighters from Russia, making it the first deal for these jets in over three decades. The country will also buy 12 Su-30MKI jets from Moscow. India’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the...

www.defenseworld.net

Then there's the MiG-29SMT

MiG-29SMT Fulcrum Multirole Fighter Aircraft - Airforce Technology

MiG-29SMT is an improved version of the MiG-29 Fulcrum fighter aircraft, designed and produced by Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RAC…

www.airforce-technology.com

Here's a glass MiG-35 cockpit.

And an old tech Ukrainian MiG-29.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

Are there any fundamental problem with the designs of MiG-29 and SU-27? Why do they tend to underperformed(Newer SU-27 variants have less payload than equivalent F-15 variants etc.),Or is it more about lack of updates(too little composite,Outdated engines tech,Subpar avionics etc.)

 

[Admiral Beez]

And what of their nuclear submarine fleet? They're one neglected system's failure away from another Kursk. What's their naval budget looking like as the army gobbles up the rubles.

The subs seem maintained well enough.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FoLcuH2US48&pp=ygULSW5zaWRlIHRhbms%3D

 

[Denniss]

Just a show-off