GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The first combat mission undertaken by an Me262 was an intercept on a Mossie flying a recon mission near Munich.
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Supplied below merely for interest, is from microfilm at Kew archives, AIR-51/364, hence the very poor quality. The only obvious disclaimer here is that you dont tend to get written encouter reports from people who WERE actualy shot down. So this just servces to show it was not a forgone conclusion that just because you get intercepted by a 262 that you`re finished.There is an account on the Mosquito website of a PR Mosquito from the RAF being escorted by two P-51s and being attacked by an Me262 going to Ploesti. One action doesnt prove anything but the high cruise speed of a Mosquito made it almost impossible for piston engined fighters to be vectored to intercept, i was relatively easy for a 262
The 355th had several missions escorting the AAF Mosquitos and P-38 F4s on recon runs. Mentioned that the Mossie simply ran away (51s on cruise) on theway back.There is an account on the Mosquito website of a PR Mosquito from the RAF being escorted by two P-51s and being attacked by an Me262 going to Ploesti. One action doesnt prove anything but the high cruise speed of a Mosquito made it almost impossible for piston engined fighters to be vectored to intercept, i was relatively easy for a 262
No need to go further as I did not make the statement. As for the idea of doing the research I refer to message 355 under this topic, with the note that since such detailed analysis will probably be called boring there will be few takers, it will be best to do it yourself.BTW to your assertion that 'the P-38 was never outnumbered'
The escorts were due to the appearance of the Me262. I have no records of P-38 having whatever "nasty habits", though it paid a price for being one of the first US aircraft to hit high mach number problems.If the P-38 was superior and could out turn anything in 1945 then why did the F-5C (ie stripped P-38)'s need fighter escort when the Luftwaffe pretty much did not want to play after December 1944.
The P-38 did have the nasty habit of biting it's pilots, a lot of experienced pilots were lost when the aircraft got away from them (Lockheed had several test pilots killed)
So the wrong claim.Pre D-Day V1 weapons strikes? There werent any, V1s werent deployed until after D-Day. Would you like some assistance getting down from that high horse or are you happy up there. I have had enough of this high and mighty nonsense.
And when pointed out it is wrong, Operation Crossbow, time to change the subject.My original point was that the allies and especially the USA had a massive surplus of combat aircraft and pilots during the period
1 Because you say so? The claim is utterly preposterous. My uncle was on a Liberty flak ship for two months during Overlord spotting for the US gunners, he got a commendation from the captain for the one 20 minute action he was involved in, he saw two LW planes near the ship during the whole invasion.1 And when pointed out it is wrong, Operation Crossbow, time to change the subject.
2 First recorded Me262 encounter was on 26 July 1944 a 544 squadron Mosquito PR XVI, MM273, one of eight sorties the squadron flew that day, was attacked near Munich by an Me262 which made some six firing passes. The Mosquito lost its attacker in 16,000 foot cloud over the Tyrol. It landed at Fermo in Italy, the Me262 pilot claimed a kill.
Ekdo 262, based in Germany claimed 3 Mosquito, 2 Spitfire, 1 B-17 and 1 Lightning to end August 1944, Ploesti fell on 1 September. No indication any Me262 were deployed to the Balkans before then.
No Me262 units were based outside of Germany during the war.No indication any Me262 were deployed to the Balkans before then.
Good fight. I wanted to click the "like" and then realised that I did that before. Probably years ago.Well, I just jumped in this conversation even tho I haven't really participated in aviation forum discussions for quite a while. It popped on my mail news and I figured I'd share at least some of my thoughts. Many things I forgot over the years.
However, when talking about this plane vs that plane it more often than not goes by how and what for were those used in actual combat.
If games like IL-2 were anything to go by, I could easily say that I won't be mixing P-38 in dogfight much unless I'm in clear advantage. I like P-38, always have, I find it to be unusual and even romantic warbird (if such thing can exist).
It may have fare well in the Pacific, and I'm certain that good pilots were making difference there using its speed even vs Ki-44 alike, in ETO you really couldn't employ same tactics.
German fighters were both fast and agile. I am subjective, but I find Bf-109 to be simply better in dogfight on equal terms. Fw's are different story.
Anyhow here is one of my ancient dogfights in IL-2 popular server WarClouds;
I made it long, long ago so pardon me for not being flashy, up to date with current videos.
if i remember right the Ar-234 operated also from ItalyThe exception would be the Ar234 and Me163 units.
The Ar234 operated from Norway, France and Belgium with III./KG76 before retreating to German proper.
By "ran away (51s on cruise)" I assume that the Mustangs were not really trying to keep up on the way home then?The 355th had several missions escorting the AAF Mosquitos and P-38 F4s on recon runs. Mentioned that the Mossie simply ran away (51s on cruise) on theway back.
The Mosquito fast cruise was higher than Mustang when both were light. Not known whether the 358FS P-51s still had external tanks attached on return.By "ran away (51s on cruise)" I assume that the Mustangs were not really trying to keep up on the way home then?
I figured it was something like that, thanks.The Mosquito fast cruise was higher than Mustang when both were light. Not known whether the 358FS P-51s still had external tanks attached on return.
You're preaching to the choir. Amen, brother.I figured it was something like that, thanks.
You know, the more time I spend here the more I realize how little I actually know, I used to consider myself pretty knowledgeable on WWII aviation but when I start reading what you guys post I think it best to remain the snarky little kid in the back of the class and keep my trap shut.
It could easily bring on bouts of depression if I think about it too much.
I dont think the difference was performance, because the P-51 was faster. The difference was internal and external fuel. A PR Mosquito in UK had about 700 gals internal fuel, or 350 per engine. The P-51 had 245 gals. External tanks on a P-51 were needed just to equal up the fuel and that increases drag, the Mosquito could also carry external tanks and drop tanks.By "ran away (51s on cruise)" I assume that the Mustangs were not really trying to keep up on the way home then?
Yes, The L/D max for the P-51 for clean Mustang is higher than Mosquito. As you note, the internal fuel is the key.I dont think the difference was performance, because the P-51 was faster. The difference was internal and external fuel. A PR Mosquito in UK had about 700 gals internal fuel, or 350 per engine. The P-51 had 245 gals. External tanks on a P-51 were needed just to equal up the fuel and that increases drag, the Mosquito could also carry external tanks and drop tanks.
So on cruise the P-51 pilot was looking for most economical cruise speed while the Mosquito could go for Max continuous.
Later model PR Mosquitos sent to the far east had 1,192 gals internal fuel with 2 x 200 gal drop tanks, as close to a flying bowser as you can get.
The account German Jet Encounters Say that the Mosquito had to throttle back 3 times as it was running ahead o the escort. I presume the effect of the fuel burn was more on the P-51s than the Mosquito. That would be an interesting exercise for students who know much more than me. As far as the PR crew are concerned an escort must have been a comfort unless it slowed them down enough to make interceptions much more likely, then it becomes like a turret.Yes, The L/D max for the P-51 for clean Mustang is higher than Mosquito. As you note, the internal fuel is the key.
As you note the difference in Max Continuous Cruise speed at 25,000 for a clean Mosquito is much higher than a P-51D w/2x110 gal tanks as the Mustang clean scoots at ~402mph TAS, but reduces to ~355mph TAS at 46"/3000 rpm and fuel flow of ~ 100gph. For optimal range to Berlin or greater, the Mustang cruis settings are at 32"/2250RPM for 281mph TAS and 57gph. Once tanks are punched, the optimal cruise settings for range are 29"/2050RPM at 303mph TAS.
I haven't researched PR Mosquito settings but with that much more internal fuel per engine - it had a lot of latitude to cruise in the 390 to 400mph range - not optimal but plenty of range.
Also from Grove, Denmark where three a/c were captured by the British. And Italy (already mentioned by Vincenzo).The Ar234 operated from Norway, France and Belgium with III./KG76 before retreating to German proper.
Kommando Sommer, based in Campoformido.if i remember right the Ar-234 operated also from Italy
Yes, The L/D max for the P-51 for clean Mustang is higher than Mosquito. As you note, the internal fuel is the key.
As you note the difference in Max Continuous Cruise speed at 25,000 for a clean Mosquito is much higher than a P-51D w/2x110 gal tanks as the Mustang clean scoots at ~402mph TAS, but reduces to ~355mph TAS at 46"/3000 rpm and fuel flow of ~ 100gph. For optimal range to Berlin or greater, the Mustang cruis settings are at 32"/2250RPM for 281mph TAS and 57gph. Once tanks are punched, the optimal cruise settings for range are 29"/2050RPM at 303mph TAS.
I haven't researched PR Mosquito settings but with that much more internal fuel per engine - it had a lot of latitude to cruise in the 390 to 400mph range - not optimal but plenty of range.
Only in context of flying matching cuise speeds with PR Mossie.The problem for the Mustang was not lack of cruise speed but lack of fuel?
Max continuous cruise for late Merlins was 2,650rpm with +7psi boost,. Adjust speed by rpm.
From the Operation Performance Notes for Mosquito Mks VIII, IX and XVI:
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Recommended Economical cruising. Interestingly the home journey is at a lower speed.
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Maximum continuous cruising
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