How good (or bad) was the P-38, really?

[Deleted member 68059]

Nice stuff, firstly are the Leigh-Mallory diaries available online?

No, you need to get them at Kew, although they`re actually fairly dull (not dissimlar to Mallory, in fact - although "some people" (me) would probably
refer to him more as a backstabbing ****).

The graph is obviously a simplified representation to give the broad comparative story, but if you do want the particulars the
accompanying text is required, along with the germany-only graph, which is available on microfilm from the USAAF Historical Branch.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

1. It was you who said they were trying to catch a look. In fact the guys were probably well meaning in their intentions, but its very easy for two or more pilots to converge on something like a V1 and not see each other until they are about to have a collision.

2. If the deception plan was so well known how is it not known by you that it was before D-Day. The first V1 launches were from the Pas de Calais on 12 June, then the south coast on London on 15/16 June after which Eisenhower prioritized attacks on launch sites.

3 Relative to the LF they had an abundance of riches in all things, the allies could put more heavy bombers in the air than Germany ever built any day they chose and then do the same the next day.

So the answer to the number of P-47 pilots went for V-1 look and that effect is no idea. I gather the long range mind reading skills are all part of an act to amaze the audience that someone can get so much so wrong in such little time. I point out the pre D-day V weapons strikes were useful as part of the deception plan and get told I did not know of the plan. Then comes the we had lots, they didn't, case closed, change of subject.

8th and 9th short tons, BC long tons of bombs on V weapon sites. first column for each force is V weapon strike tonnage, next is total tonnage for the month. No data for 9th AF in 1943, or 2nd TAF and Fighter Command. 8th AF 1st strike Watten 27 August 1943, Bomber Command Foret D'Eperleques on 30th. For those who want to get an idea of what really happened, the big jump was Bomber Command switching. Note the priority in the first 5 months of 1944 based on percentage of effort against the target class for the day bombers.

Month / 8th / 8th total / 9th / 9th total / BC / BC total
Aug-43 / 366 / 3524.2 / 0 / 0 / 2072 / 20149
Sep-43 / 116 / 5482.7 / 0 / 0 / 153 / 14855
Oct-43 / 0 / 4708.5 / ? / 427.05 / 0 / 13773
Nov-43 / 0 / 6416.8 / ? / 1571.65 / 0 / 14495
Dec-43 / 1461.3 / 11734.5 / ? / 1474.58 / 346 / 11802
Jan-44 / 2732.9 / 11679.2 / 1497 / 1546 / 1482 / 18428
Feb-44 / 2997.7 / 18339.4 / 1822.8 / 3368.9 / 9 / 12054
Mar-44 / 2369.4 / 21046.6 / 1268.95 / 5219.08 / 14 / 27698
Apr-44 / 3943.3 / 24931.3 / 2625.151 / 10213.18 / 7 / 33496
May-44 / 2628.5 / 36006.6 / 1241.606 / 17905.12 / 5 / 37252
Jun-44 / 5072.4 / 58271 / 2045.174 / 23059.02 / 15907 / 57267
Jul-44 / 3854.8 / 45212 / 190.25 / 15574.375 / 24292 / 57615
Aug-44 / 2550.8 / 47979.2 / 0 / 0 / 19376 / 65855
Sep-44 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 859 / 52587

I believe the now standard sign off is P-38?

 

[pbehn]

So the answer to the number of P-47 pilots went for V-1 look and that effect is no idea. I gather the long range mind reading skills are all part of an act to amaze the audience that someone can get so much so wrong in such little time. I point out the pre D-day V weapons strikes were useful as part of the deception plan and get told I did not know of the plan. Then comes the we had lots, they didn't, case closed, change of subject.

8th and 9th short tons, BC long tons of bombs on V weapon sites. first column for each force is V weapon strike tonnage, next is total tonnage for the month. No data for 9th AF in 1943, or 2nd TAF and Fighter Command. 8th AF 1st strike Watten 27 August 1943, Bomber Command Foret D'Eperleques on 30th. For those who want to get an idea of what really happened, the big jump was Bomber Command switching. Note the priority in the first 5 months of 1944 based on percentage of effort against the target class for the day bombers.

Month / 8th / 8th total / 9th / 9th total / BC / BC total
Aug-43 / 366 / 3524.2 / 0 / 0 / 2072 / 20149
Sep-43 / 116 / 5482.7 / 0 / 0 / 153 / 14855
Oct-43 / 0 / 4708.5 / ? / 427.05 / 0 / 13773
Nov-43 / 0 / 6416.8 / ? / 1571.65 / 0 / 14495
Dec-43 / 1461.3 / 11734.5 / ? / 1474.58 / 346 / 11802
Jan-44 / 2732.9 / 11679.2 / 1497 / 1546 / 1482 / 18428
Feb-44 / 2997.7 / 18339.4 / 1822.8 / 3368.9 / 9 / 12054
Mar-44 / 2369.4 / 21046.6 / 1268.95 / 5219.08 / 14 / 27698
Apr-44 / 3943.3 / 24931.3 / 2625.151 / 10213.18 / 7 / 33496
May-44 / 2628.5 / 36006.6 / 1241.606 / 17905.12 / 5 / 37252
Jun-44 / 5072.4 / 58271 / 2045.174 / 23059.02 / 15907 / 57267
Jul-44 / 3854.8 / 45212 / 190.25 / 15574.375 / 24292 / 57615
Aug-44 / 2550.8 / 47979.2 / 0 / 0 / 19376 / 65855
Sep-44 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 859 / 52587

I believe the now standard sign off is P-38?

Pre D-Day V1 weapons strikes? There werent any, V1s werent deployed until after D-Day. Would you like some assistance getting down from that high horse or are you happy up there. I have had enough of this high and mighty nonsense.

 

[EwenS]

Pre D-Day V1 weapons strikes? There werent any, V1s werent deployed until after D-Day. Would you like some assistance getting down from that high horse or are you happy up there. I have had enough of this high and mighty nonsense.

By 24 Nov 1943 96 V1 launch sites (the so called "ski sites") had been identified between Calais and Cherbourg. These sites, and others discovered later, were targetted by everything from fighter bombers up to heavy bombers under the codename OPeration Crossbow starting Dec 1943.

Operation Crossbow - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The P-38 experience could only be characterized as 'heavily outnumbered in combat operations'

So at the moment there is no evidence of "P-38 fought consistently heavily outnumbered"

USAAF fighters over Germany usually fought outnumbered, at least on escort duties.

To include P-38s, right?

Sure, it is a well known fact all air forces fought outnumbered most of the time and even at the same time at the same and different places, while they were really competing in the best paint job and unit emblem events.

You made my Day!

 

[Reluctant Poster]

No, you need to get them at Kew, although they`re actually fairly dull (not dissimlar to Mallory, in fact - although "some people" (me) would probably
refer to him more as a backstabbing ****).

The graph is obviously a simplified representation to give the broad comparative story, but if you do want the particulars the
accompanying text is required, along with the germany-only graph, which is available on microfilm from the USAAF Historical Branch.

View attachment 646604

View attachment 646605

The take away from this graph isn't that the total number of hours decreased, its the big drop in hours flying the actual aircraft used in combat. Training took a big hit with the invasion of Russia. Hours in type was cut in half.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

The take away from this graph isn't that the total number of hours decreased, its the big drop in hours flying the actual aircraft used in combat. Training took a big hit with the invasion of Russia. Hours in type was cut in half.

Yes, the fuel shortages meant it was increasingly impossible to fly pilots in front line military aircraft, which needed either B4 or C3 fuel, so they got more and more hours in trainer-types which used very low grade fuels like "A3" training grade, which was about 80 octane.

 

[Deleted member 79357]

Going to cause trouble with this one but; If the P-38 was superior and could out turn anything in 1945 then why did the F-5C (ie stripped P-38)'s need fighter escort when the Luftwaffe pretty much did not want to play after December 1944.

The P-38 did have the nasty habit of biting it's pilots, a lot of experienced pilots were lost when the aircraft got away from them (Lockheed had several test pilots killed)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Going to cause trouble with this one but; If the P-38 was superior and could out turn anything in 1945 then why did the F-5C (ie stripped P-38)'s need fighter escort when the Luftwaffe pretty much did not want to play after December 1944.

You'll only cause trouble if you don't have a source for your comments. Where did anyone say "the P-38 was superior and could out turn anything in 1945?" (Besides Ben Rich in the book "Skunk Works"). Can you provide specific references where F-5Cs were sent on escorted missions?

The P-38 did have the nasty habit of biting it's pilots, a lot of experienced pilots were lost when the aircraft got away from them (Lockheed had several test pilots killed)

Your statement is pretty broad - Several Lockheed test pilots and later AAF pilots were killed due to compresibility, a phenomena never encountered prior to the P-38 (and something that other aircraft dealt with as well to include the P-47). There were numerous accidents in the P-38 due to lack of twin engine training prior to the US entering the war. This has been covered on this forum many times in the past.

 

[pbehn]

Going to cause trouble with this one but; If the P-38 was superior and could out turn anything in 1945 then why did the F-5C (ie stripped P-38)'s need fighter escort when the Luftwaffe pretty much did not want to play after December 1944.

The P-38 did have the nasty habit of biting it's pilots, a lot of experienced pilots were lost when the aircraft got away from them (Lockheed had several test pilots killed)

Wasnt part of the stripping, taking out the guns?

 

[drgondog]

Going to cause trouble with this one but; If the P-38 was superior and could out turn anything in 1945 then why did the F-5C (ie stripped P-38)'s need fighter escort when the Luftwaffe pretty much did not want to play after December 1944.

The P-38 did have the nasty habit of biting it's pilots, a lot of experienced pilots were lost when the aircraft got away from them (Lockheed had several test pilots killed)

You don't seem fazed by Tourett's syndrome, but both Mosquito and P-38 recon had escort for deep targets Most of the time. The LW reacted to recon penetration as a high priority mission, continuing to 'play' until after April 25th 1945 when 8th AF stood down combat ops in ETO.

As to losing a 'lot of experienced pilots' define Lot, define Experienced and present fact based argument? I'm actually consumed by indifference regarding your scholarship - but prove me wrong.

 

[pbehn]

Both Mosquito and P-38 recon had escort for deep targets Most of the time.

For some reason people think a PR mission meant clicking an instamatic camera in the general direction of something. The cameras were fixed so the plane had to be in an exact orientation to what was being photographed. Like a short bomb run, and impossible to do in a single seat aircraft if you are being buzzed by some nasty chap with guns.

 

[pbehn]

The take away from this graph isn't that the total number of hours decreased, its the big drop in hours flying the actual aircraft used in combat. Training took a big hit with the invasion of Russia. Hours in type was cut in half.

This was shown up in Operation Steinbock the baby blitz. In some cases only 10% of planes got to the target that was frequently London. Many losses were simply that, pilots got lost. Night and instrument flying wasnt part of the bomber crews skills any more neither was pathfinding operations. No where near what they managed in 1940/41.

 

[DKoor]

Well, I just jumped in this conversation even tho I haven't really participated in aviation forum discussions for quite a while. It popped on my mail news and I figured I'd share at least some of my thoughts. Many things I forgot over the years.
However, when talking about this plane vs that plane it more often than not goes by how and what for were those used in actual combat.
If games like IL-2 were anything to go by, I could easily say that I won't be mixing P-38 in dogfight much unless I'm in clear advantage. I like P-38, always have, I find it to be unusual and even romantic warbird (if such thing can exist) .

It may have fare well in the Pacific, and I'm certain that good pilots were making difference there using its speed even vs Ki-44 alike, in ETO you really couldn't employ same tactics.
German fighters were both fast and agile. I am subjective, but I find Bf-109 to be simply better in dogfight on equal terms. Fw's are different story.
Anyhow here is one of my ancient dogfights in IL-2 popular server WarClouds;


I made it long, long ago so pardon me for not being flashy, up to date with current videos .

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If games like IL-2 were anything to go by

They aren't -

NEXT!

 

[pbehn]

By 24 Nov 1943 96 V1 launch sites (the so called "ski sites") had been identified between Calais and Cherbourg. These sites, and others discovered later, were targetted by everything from fighter bombers up to heavy bombers under the codename OPeration Crossbow starting Dec 1943.

Operation Crossbow - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My original point was that the allies and especially the USA had a massive surplus of combat aircraft and pilots during the period, not only P-47s but all others. Your link details the huge forces mainly strategic that were diverted to Crossbow in the lead up to and after D-Day. This made no difference to D-Day which had as close to complete air superiority as anyone could have dreamed about. It made no difference to operations in Italy, the fall of Rome on June 5th was overshadowed in the news by D-Day itself. The invasion of Southern France still went ahead on August 15. Spaatz, Harris and others may have disagreed about the best way to tackle things but even diverting the massive resources detailed in the link didnt make any difference to any strategic objective and I doubt anyone in Germany actually noticed.

 

[nuuumannn]

You don't seem fazed by Tourett's syndrome, but both Mosquito and P-38 recon had escort for deep targets Most of the time. The LW reacted to recon penetration as a high priority mission, continuing to 'play' until after April 25th 1945 when 8th AF stood down combat ops in ETO.

As to losing a 'lot of experienced pilots' define Lot, define Experienced and present fact based argument? I'm actually consumed by indifference regarding your scholarship - but prove me wrong.

You won't get an answer from him now, he's been banned; his ebullient personality shone through a little too brightly for us to comprehend...

 

[wuzak]

both Mosquito and P-38 recon had escort for deep targets Most of the time.

Mainly in USAAF service?

RAF long range PR aircraft (Mosquito and Spitfire) tended to operate alone.

 

[SaparotRob]

You won't get an answer from him now, he's been banned; his ebullient personality shone through a little too brightly for us to comprehend...

What? I don't understand.

 

[pbehn]

Mainly in USAAF service?

RAF long range PR aircraft (Mosquito and Spitfire) tended to operate alone.

There is an account on the Mosquito website of a PR Mosquito from the RAF being escorted by two P-51s and being attacked by an Me262 going to Ploesti. One action doesnt prove anything but the high cruise speed of a Mosquito made it almost impossible for piston engined fighters to be vectored to intercept, i was relatively easy for a 262