GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The first combat mission undertaken by an Me262 was an intercept on a Mossie flying a recon mission near Munich.
How good (or bad) was the P-38, really?
- Thread starter NTGray
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Deleted member 68059
Staff Sergeant
- 1,058
- Dec 28, 2015
Supplied below merely for interest, is from microfilm at Kew archives, AIR-51/364, hence the very poor quality. The only obvious disclaimer here is that you dont tend to get written encouter reports from people who WERE actualy shot down. So this just servces to show it was not a forgone conclusion that just because you get intercepted by a 262 that you`re finished.
drgondog
Major
The 355th had several missions escorting the AAF Mosquitos and P-38 F4s on recon runs. Mentioned that the Mossie simply ran away (51s on cruise) on theway back.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 812
- Sep 30, 2021
No need to go further as I did not make the statement. As for the idea of doing the research I refer to message 355 under this topic, with the note that since such detailed analysis will probably be called boring there will be few takers, it will be best to do it yourself.
The escorts were due to the appearance of the Me262. I have no records of P-38 having whatever "nasty habits", though it paid a price for being one of the first US aircraft to hit high mach number problems.
The case against the F-4 and 5 usually quotes the 8th AF use. Roger Freeman notes it informed the British in December 1943 the F-5 they had were not up to standard, the Spitfire XI being faster, longer ranged and able to fly higher. The Spitfires were also estimated to take 1/3 the maintenance time. Also the US was after Mosquitoes in early 1943 as they rated them again better than the F-4 and F-5, including the fact the Mosquito could carry a 36 inch camera. The 8th AF ended up using 145 Mosquitoes, mostly mark XVI. Note the F-4 and 5 continued to be used but the 8th preferred the other types for the longer range missions, as well the F-4 and 5 continued in use with other US forces.
Until the Me262 were in service allied long range PR went unescorted. From a quick look it maybe the 8th AF started escorting its reconnaissance aircraft on 24 December 1944 but it could be earlier. Not sure when or how often the RAF provided PR escorts.
So the wrong claim.
And when pointed out it is wrong, Operation Crossbow, time to change the subject.
First recorded Me262 encounter was on 26 July 1944 a 544 squadron Mosquito PR XVI, MM273, one of eight sorties the squadron flew that day, was attacked near Munich by an Me262 which made some six firing passes. The Mosquito lost its attacker in 16,000 foot cloud over the Tyrol. It landed at Fermo in Italy, the Me262 pilot claimed a kill.
Ekdo 262, based in Germany claimed 3 Mosquito, 2 Spitfire, 1 B-17 and 1 Lightning to end August 1944, Ploesti fell on 1 September. No indication any Me262 were deployed to the Balkans before then.
1 Because you say so? The claim is utterly preposterous. My uncle was on a Liberty flak ship for two months during Overlord spotting for the US gunners, he got a commendation from the captain for the one 20 minute action he was involved in, he saw two LW planes near the ship during the whole invasion.
The Crippling Losses of the Luftwaffe During Operation Overlord
The attainment of air superiority over the Normandy landing area and hinterland was an essential prerequisite for the Allied Invasion in June...
www.historyhit.com
The Allies fielded 3,467 heavy bombers, 1,645 medium-light bombers, and 5,409 fighters and fighter-bombers over Normandy, and on D-Day itself flew 14,674 operational sorties (losses = 113, mainly to flak) as against 319 Luftwaffe sorties.
2 already posted.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
No Me262 units were based outside of Germany during the war.
This includes:
JV44
JG7
10./NJG11
KG(j)6
KG(j)51
KG(j)54
EJG2
EKdo 262
Kdo Nowotny
KDO Welter
The He162 units were also based in Germany:
EKDO 162
I./JG1
The exception would be the Ar234 and Me163 units.
The Ar234 operated from Norway, France and Belgium with III./KG76 before retreating to German proper.
JG400 operated the Me163 briefly from the Netherlands before moving to Brandis.
Well, I just jumped in this conversation even tho I haven't really participated in aviation forum discussions for quite a while. It popped on my mail news and I figured I'd share at least some of my thoughts. Many things I forgot over the years.
However, when talking about this plane vs that plane it more often than not goes by how and what for were those used in actual combat.
If games like IL-2 were anything to go by, I could easily say that I won't be mixing P-38 in dogfight much unless I'm in clear advantage. I like P-38, always have, I find it to be unusual and even romantic warbird (if such thing can exist).
It may have fare well in the Pacific, and I'm certain that good pilots were making difference there using its speed even vs Ki-44 alike, in ETO you really couldn't employ same tactics.
German fighters were both fast and agile. I am subjective, but I find Bf-109 to be simply better in dogfight on equal terms. Fw's are different story.
Anyhow here is one of my ancient dogfights in IL-2 popular server WarClouds;
I made it long, long ago so pardon me for not being flashy, up to date with current videos.
Good fight. I wanted to click the "like" and then realised that I did that before. Probably years ago.
if i remember right the Ar-234 operated also from Italy
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
By "ran away (51s on cruise)" I assume that the Mustangs were not really trying to keep up on the way home then?
drgondog
Major
The Mosquito fast cruise was higher than Mustang when both were light. Not known whether the 358FS P-51s still had external tanks attached on return.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
I figured it was something like that, thanks.
You know, the more time I spend here the more I realize how little I actually know, I used to consider myself pretty knowledgeable on WWII aviation but when I start reading what you guys post I think it best to remain the snarky little kid in the back of the class and keep my trap shut.
It could easily bring on bouts of depression if I think about it too much.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
You're preaching to the choir. Amen, brother.
I dont think the difference was performance, because the P-51 was faster. The difference was internal and external fuel. A PR Mosquito in UK had about 700 gals internal fuel, or 350 per engine. The P-51 had 245 gals. External tanks on a P-51 were needed just to equal up the fuel and that increases drag, the Mosquito could also carry external tanks and drop tanks.
So on cruise the P-51 pilot was looking for most economical cruise speed while the Mosquito could go for Max continuous.
Later model PR Mosquitos sent to the far east had 1,192 gals internal fuel with 2 x 200 gal drop tanks, as close to a flying bowser as you can get.
drgondog
Major
Yes, The L/D max for the P-51 for clean Mustang is higher than Mosquito. As you note, the internal fuel is the key.
As you note the difference in Max Continuous Cruise speed at 25,000 for a clean Mosquito is much higher than a P-51D w/2x110 gal tanks as the Mustang clean scoots at ~402mph TAS, but reduces to ~355mph TAS at 46"/3000 rpm and fuel flow of ~ 100gph. For optimal range to Berlin or greater, the Mustang cruis settings are at 32"/2250RPM for 281mph TAS and 57gph. Once tanks are punched, the optimal cruise settings for range are 29"/2050RPM at 303mph TAS.
I haven't researched PR Mosquito settings but with that much more internal fuel per engine - it had a lot of latitude to cruise in the 390 to 400mph range - not optimal but plenty of range.
The account German Jet Encounters Say that the Mosquito had to throttle back 3 times as it was running ahead o the escort. I presume the effect of the fuel burn was more on the P-51s than the Mosquito. That would be an interesting exercise for students who know much more than me. As far as the PR crew are concerned an escort must have been a comfort unless it slowed them down enough to make interceptions much more likely, then it becomes like a turret.
Also from Grove, Denmark where three a/c were captured by the British. And Italy (already mentioned by Vincenzo).
Kommando Sommer, based in Campoformido.
Since the thread is about P-38, it makes sense to mention that Erich Sommer himself tried to attack F-5 Lightning in his Ar 234 armed with 2xMG151/20.
wuzak
Captain
The problem for the Mustang was not lack of cruise speed but lack of fuel?
Max continuous cruise for late Merlins was 2,650rpm with +7psi boost,. Adjust speed by rpm.
From the Operation Performance Notes for Mosquito Mks VIII, IX and XVI:
Recommended Economical cruising. Interestingly the home journey is at a lower speed.
Maximum continuous cruising
drgondog
Major
Only in context of flying matching cuise speeds with PR Mossie.
How good or bad was the P-38 really?
Well it was in service before the USA entered the war and 10,000 were made so forget any comparison with late war or didnt even enter the conflict wonder weapons that did nothing at all.
It wasnt as good as a P-51 as a long range escort ,,,, so second to the best long range escort of the era in something vital to the whole USA and allied strategy.
It wasnt as good in MRCA roles as the Mosquito like PR, night fighter light bomber ,,,,, so second to the best in that category.
There are various states of "goodness" I cant see any case to be made for it being bad, without it, the allies are fighting a different war.
Well it was in service before the USA entered the war and 10,000 were made so forget any comparison with late war or didnt even enter the conflict wonder weapons that did nothing at all.
It wasnt as good as a P-51 as a long range escort ,,,, so second to the best long range escort of the era in something vital to the whole USA and allied strategy.
It wasnt as good in MRCA roles as the Mosquito like PR, night fighter light bomber ,,,,, so second to the best in that category.
There are various states of "goodness" I cant see any case to be made for it being bad, without it, the allies are fighting a different war.
