How good was the soviet air force?

GregP · Dec 26, 2024

The Planes of Fame Yak-3 has an unusual history.

It apparently started life as a genuine Yak-3 and was operatednby the Soviet Union for some 15 years before it taxiied into a hangar and damaged the nose. The nose was repaired and a radal was fitted, and it served as a Yak-11 type trainer until it was sold to a party in the UK, where it was operated for some time before being taxiied into another hangar, damaging the fuselage again. Ed Maloney bought it and had a Yak-3 fuselage built here in the U.S.A. to be mated to the original Yak-3 wings. He also installed an Allison engine and a modified C-47 propeller. It still flies that way today. So, the wings are original and the fuselage is a new-build unit.

It is painted in the Normandie-Nieman unit colors.

Snautzer01 · Dec 27, 2024

It is a looker .

Dimlee · Dec 28, 2024

About Normandie-Niemen.
I consider the story about the French preference for Yak true... but with one important note. They could take only equipment that could be replaced and maintained on the Eastern Front. They could wish for the newest Spitfires but it was a futile wish in 1943.

bf109xxl · Dec 28, 2024

Dimlee said:
About Normandie-Niemen.
I consider the story about the French preference for Yak true... but with one important note. They could take only equipment that could be replaced and maintained on the Eastern Front. They could wish for the newest Spitfires but it was a futile wish in 1943.

1. The choice of the airplane was made in advance and long before the first flights on the Yak-1. The choice of the Yak-1 was rather a curtsy to the Soviets, but the French did not regret it much.
2. The newest Spitfire in the USSR in 1943 was the Mk.VB.
3. The French received their Yak-3s in August 1944.

bf109xxl · Dec 28, 2024

tomo pauk said:
It mattered that the P-51B was 30-40 mph faster than the P-63A, and that it have had double the range. It also mattered that the P-51B was earlier than the P-63A by several months.
The P-63 was a step backward vs. the P-51.

In April 1944, a training air combat between the P-63 and the P-51 with the participation of Soviet pilot Kochetkov resulted in a draw - neither side had a clear advantage. At the same time, the P-63 clearly won a similar combat with the P-39. Up to altitudes of 5,000 meters, the P-51 had no advantages over either the P-63 or the Soviet fighters of 1944. The Soviets tested the P-51D in 1945 with roughly the same result - up to 5000 m it was inferior to Soviet fighters in maneuverability and acceleration dynamics, but above 5000 m it was superior, and the higher the greater the advantage. The Soviets used the P-63 mainly in air defense, so it would likely have had a tough time with Mustangs. And vice versa: Mustangs being forced to descend to the normal altitude of Soviet bombers might suffer high losses against Soviet fighters at altitudes up to 5000 m, if the pilots had comparable training.

Ovod · Dec 28, 2024

bf109xxl said:
1. The choice of the airplane was made in advance and long before the first flights on the Yak-1. The choice of the Yak-1 was rather a curtsy to the Soviets, but the French did not regret it much.
2. The newest Spitfire in the USSR in 1943 was the Mk.VB.
3. The French received their Yak-3s in August 1944.

No wonder the French pilots on the Eastern front had much success with the Yak-3.
Fighting the Luftwaffe in the last 9 months of the war (or for most of that period) would have seemed like a big mopping-up operation - the quality of German pilots had seriously deteriorated by then.

bf109xxl · Dec 28, 2024

Ovod said:
No wonder the French pilots on the Eastern front had much success with the Yak-3.

Except that two of them were killed due to the destruction of the airplane while diving - their Yak-3s lost their wings at a speed of about 800 km/h. This is another fact to the discussion about the quality of Soviet airplanes.
But in general it cannot be overlooked that even with the deteriorated average training of German pilots and the reduced strength of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front, the effectiveness of the Soviet air force was not impressive. Aircraft performance and quality were not the main problems of the Soviet Air Force. The low level of training of pilots and commanders, ineffective tactics, and inadequate planning of operations were of much higher importance.

bf109xxl · Dec 28, 2024

Ernest (Russia) said:
LaGG and La are mass produced.

The material technology for LaGG/La has nothing to do with these experimental airplanes - it was developed by the Germans in the late 1920s for the manufacture of propellers, the development of which was supervised by Lavochkin in the Ministry (People's Comissariat) of Aviation Industry.

bf109xxl · Dec 28, 2024

Ernest (Russia) said:
VIAM historians write a lot about this

A reference would be appreciated.

Ernest (Russia) said:
, but I trust those who accuse them.

Matters of faith are beyond the discussion.

Ernest (Russia) said:
Neither one nor the other relies on sources, but new researchers mention the failure of supplies of phenolic resin in the spring of 1941. Of course, it is in the import lists.

Import does not negate its own production.

Ernest (Russia) said:
For example, I do not claim this, in the places you mentioned, formulations from synthesized resin could be created: impregnation and varnishes. The powder plant, in particular, is not a synthetic chemistry plant. The Guess where lied game is a favorite in the USSR.

The plant in Orekhovo-Zuyevo produced bakelite since WWI. "Gunpowder factory" is a historic name. In reality, it was a large chemical plant with gunpowder and polymers production dominating.

bf109xxl · Dec 29, 2024

Ernest (Russia) said:
These are questions about investments and aircraft orders in the USSR.

Not for me.

Ernest (Russia) said:
"In terms of aluminum production, it was already ahead of France, England, Italy and Canada in 1935." Not the Germany and the USA, yeah. In 1939, the USSR produced more than 48,000 tons of alu alloys.

German aluminum production in thousands of tons: 1939 - 209, 1941 - 255. Do I need to cite any more figures for the US and UK/Canada?

Ernest (Russia) said:
You know that alu was used for thousands tank diesels. But it was not used in life, navy, etc. The USSR in 1939 produced more aircraft than the USA or Germany. Including multi-engine aluminum aircraft.

The aircraft industry consumed more than 70% of all aluminum production (IIRC, 73%).

Ernest (Russia) said:
The commissioning of new aluminum plants in the USSR was delayed. This did not become a priority in advance, partly because in 1937 the government was busy with horror and executions.

Without denying the terrible consequences of terror in the USSR, I note that this was not the main reason for the problems with the deployment of new aluminum plants. The main problem was the weakness of the Soviet industry in general and the lack of funds for investment, ridiculous as it may sound.

Ernest (Russia) said:
Alu production in the USSR increased during the war years using its own mines, at a single plant (the second east plant was supposed to produce in 1942, but it came out in 1945).

Without aluminum shipments under the Lend-Lease program, this production would have been totally insufficient. Under Lend-Lease, the Soviets received more aluminum than they produced themselves.

Ernest (Russia) said:
The country is the largest, the geologists worked commendably. Bauxite deposits in the east. But, "244,441 tons of aluminum... and 79,646 tons of silumin were produced during the war years." (the tons accuracy!) This is quite a lot even without imports.

That's less than half of all aluminum used.

Ernest (Russia) said:
Let me remind you again that my belief is that it is necessary to fight immediately, and not to delay.

And for this purpose it was necessary to keep the senseless production of DB-3 and build thousands of underbomber Pe-2 and ineffective Il-2 instead of effective airplanes?

Ernest (Russia) said:
The main years are the first. By the time of the war, it was possible to have even half as many real planes. However, 800 alu TB-3, 6600 (!) SB (before Blenheim!), and 1500 (!) DB-3 were produced before Barbarossa. Bombers heavier than the DB-3 (Il-4) were not produced, but in the UK it was quite, fighters export to the USSR. A different approach. Whose is better?

The ANT-42 (Pe-8) was mass produced. Another useless airplane.

Ernest (Russia) said:
Alu fighter designs were requested in 1940, before the invasion. They are not ready. In 1941,

How many all-metal fighters were developed in the USSR prior to the war outbreak?

Ernest (Russia) said:
Yakovlev made metal Yak-3-first (I-30),

Only the wing spar was made of metal.

Ernest (Russia) said:
Polikarpov - ITP and IDS,

not IDS(==Gr-1), but TIS

Ernest (Russia) said:
Sukhoi - Su-1

Wooden fuselage.

Ernest (Russia) said:
and OBSh

Not a fighter.

Ernest (Russia) said:
They were all late. It seems that the "centrally plan" was to build only metal ones, except the training Yak-1UTI (Yak-7 and -9) and the trendy "plastic" LaGG. Imagine if Typhoon wait for ready in the UK with thousands Gladiators.

Production of the I-153 was started in 1939, and there were requests to restart it in 1942!

Ernest (Russia) said:
The leapfrog was such that serial factories worked in three shifts before the war, but one large plant without a task, since they decided what to build there. With an unprecedented number of new projects and an instant change of tasks for plants. Bedlam.
The repair of percale and wooden structures is not simple. The real fighter repair can be viewed in LW. In Russia, the quilted jackets are offended that completely destroyed LW fighters have been restored and it is difficult account of the Soviet aces. In the USSR, fighters were most often lost for non-combat reasons. Infrequent flights and a short service life of the aircraft. Because of their construction, there are few aircraft involved in combat missions. Their indicators depend on the dampness. Fighters with a skin on nails and casein glue could not dive, so they don't need height. Bottom: everyone to alu skin. Even DH and Vickers.

I'm having trouble grasping your point, but not all Soviet fighters had problems with dive speed. The problem was the use of teenage labor to assemble the planes. If half of the nails don't hit a rib, it's not a design problem, it's an assembly quality problem. But in any case there was an opportunity to increase the proportion of metal in the airframe and produce a good fighter (I-185) instead of the shabby LaGGs/La or MiGs.

Ernest (Russia) said:
It would be better not so many fighters, but of the better quality in order to preserve the experience of pilots, and not replace the dead with beginners from accelerated education.

And there wasn't enough aviation gasoline for that. Because they wanted to make more airplanes. Typical inefficiency of the Soviet system.

Snautzer01 · Dec 29, 2024

bf109xxl said:
German aluminum production in thousands of tons: 1939 - 209, 1941 - 255. Do I need to cite any more figures for the US and UK/Canada?

Yes and source. On soviet and western.

bf109xxl said:
e aircraft industry consumed more than 70% of all aluminum production (IIRC, 73%).

Yes and source. On soviet and western.

Etc. Etc.

Not dis agreeing just want to know what sources you take info from.

bf109xxl · Dec 29, 2024

Snautzer01 said:
Yes and source. On soviet and western.

A survey of the aluminum industry and some recent trends by J.A.Shubin, PhD Thesis, USC, 1943
Non-Ferrous Metals of the USSR: Their Production and Trade in 1917—1966

Snautzer01 said:
Yes and source. On soviet and western.

Only for Soviets. The same source.

Snautzer01 said:
Not dis agreeing just want to know what sources you take info from.

Oh, that's great. Finally, a serious approach in the thread.

Lend-Lease:

I do not provide references to publications in Russian-language aviation journals - it is quite tedious, but if you have specific questions on particular airplanes, I can gradually provide them.

Ernest (Russia) · Dec 29, 2024

marathag said:
The P-63 or P-51 still wouldn't be able to match the roll rate of the FW-190, but the P-63 had a slightly better toll rate, around 20 degrees faster at 250mph and 10 at 300, while at 350mph both could match the FW in roll.

Here is my collage about the P-63 in VVS end of war.

And I think your approach in the quoted part is inadequate. There are many combat indicators than you see. Mentioning a small part is always not enough.

tomo pauk · Dec 29, 2024

Ernest (Russia) said:
And I think your approach in the quoted part is inadequate. There are many combat indicators than you see. Mentioning a small part is always not enough.

Have we forgotten the 1st rule wrt. the performance figures coming from Larry Bell's company?

Ernest (Russia) · Dec 29, 2024

bf109xxl said:
View attachment 811817

Only for Soviets. The same source.

Great set, thanks. Stepanov's monograph on his doctoral thesis is good. I also respect the author for his courage. But this is an overview of the main Russian post-Soviet publications. Revisionism has advanced even further.
I have a different attitude to books than you do, because I come from the USSR, where they systematically lied. Even the documents lie, not to mention the historiography. Stepanov faithfully repeats mistakes in the places that occupy me. Our historical science of war is young.
It would be good with an accurate quotes that can be discussed here.
Stepanov's systematic error in his sources: they all avoid discussing anything above the level of the chief of the design bureau. Even factory directors are not considered, not to mention glavks, narcoms and Stalin. For me personally, these are fairy tales with hints. The phenomenon in question is arranged in a different way.
And the selection criteria at that time were clearly not the same, as they say almost everywhere. They are visible in the transcripts of the discussions at that time.
------------
In general, most articles in the Russian Federation about combat aviation are based on the Western scheme. Maybe even Polish. These are articles for modelers, where the designer is the hero of the narrative, a free creator. Even in the West, this is a fairy tale, not to mention the Stalinist era that we are discussing here.
Where would I read about the collision of ideas in the UK Ministry of Aviation?

Ernest (Russia) · Dec 29, 2024

Dimlee said:
About Normandie-Niemen.
I consider the story about the French preference for Yak true... but with one important note. They could take only equipment that could be replaced and maintained on the Eastern Front. They could wish for the newest Spitfires but it was a futile wish in 1943.

In fact, the French in the USSR had no choice. They are ordinary officers of a Soviet regiment. This is a complete fabrication.
But, perhaps, Yak is the closest to France, and not by chance at all. The history of Yak-1 is very revealing. For example, it is no coincidence that the Yak is so similar to the earlier Yugoslav Rogozarski IK-3.
I would like to point out that after flying to France on Yak-3 they soon switched to FW-190. They also don't ask pilots what they should fight on.
The duties of a military pilot include the love of their weapons. This fact is neglected by many history buffs.

Frog · Dec 29, 2024

Ernest (Russia) said:
In fact, the French in the USSR had no choice. They are ordinary officers of a Soviet regiment. This is a complete fabrication.
But, perhaps, Yak is the closest to France, and not by chance at all. The history of Yak-1 is very revealing. For example, it is no coincidence that the Yak is so similar to the earlier Yugoslav Rogozarski IK-3.
I would like to point out that after flying to France on Yak-3 they soon switched to FW-190. They also don't ask pilots what they should fight on.
The duties of a military pilot include the love of their weapons. This fact is neglected by many history buffs.

Do not also forget that these French pilots had previously undergone the rigorous training to RAF standards, and as such were in good condition to adapt to Russian standards and airplanes.
By the way, many were not officers but NCOs.

bf109xxl · Dec 29, 2024

Ernest (Russia) said:
In fact, the French in the USSR had no choice. They are ordinary officers of a Soviet regiment. This is a complete fabrication.
But, perhaps, Yak is the closest to France, and not by chance at all. The history of Yak-1 is very revealing. For example, it is no coincidence that the Yak is so similar to the earlier Yugoslav Rogozarski IK-3.
I would like to point out that after flying to France on Yak-3 they soon switched to FW-190. They also don't ask pilots what they should fight on.
The duties of a military pilot include the love of their weapons. This fact is neglected by many history buffs.

I highly recommend to get familiar with the subject first - e.g. here:

This is a very comprehensive source containing many interesting details.

Frog · Dec 29, 2024

Memories from one of the best known pilots :

bf109xxl · Dec 29, 2024

Frog said:
Memories from one of the best known pilots :

Memoirs are a less reliable source. The memoirs of François de Geoffre and Roland de la Poype can be mentioned as well.

How good was the soviet air force?

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