How soon could a DB-engined FW190 entered combat?

[DonL]

alejandro's data's are correct.

The Fw 190 V-13, V-15 and V-16 were tested beginning (march) 1942 the whole year with normal DB 603's.
Certainly all three prototypes were without any armament, plugged up and polished.
All three had ring cowling and at the V13 was experimented with intermal exhaust and external exhaust.
Finaly the external exhaust was choosen and the performances of all three Prototypes were promising and much better then the FW 190 B.

The first Prototype of the FW 190 C with DB 603 and Hirth turbo charger was the Fw 190 V18/U1 also flying at 1942.
Also the Prototypes FW 190 V29, V30, V32 und V33.

The real problem was, the LW had no DB 603 or Jumo 213 mass produced at the end 1942 and whole 1943.
There was simply no engine factory with capacity and the only engine factory with capacity (Flugmotorenwerke Ostmark) had an output of roundabout 100 DB 603 at 1943.

The whole problem of the LW wasn't the technology of aircrafts it was the too late development of their engines and no factory's to produce them (mainly for the DB 603, only partly for the Jumo 213)

The whole issue started with the advertisements of the Bomber A and the Bomber B (1937), because both advertisements shifted the engine development in the wrong or not natural directions.

Year 1937:

Junkers: 210, 211; new development Jumo 222 (Bomber B)
The first ideas of the Jumo 213 existed at 1938, also this development was on a very very low priority till 1941 (end of the major development of the Jumo 222)

DB: DB 600, DB 601 and Prototypes of the DB 603; new development DB 604 and DB 606 (Bomber B and A), the DB 603 was canceled from the RLM and Daimler funded a very low development of their own till 1941

This development program also influenced in a decisive way the production program. Major production factorys were funded and built for the DB 601 and Jumo 211 and at 1940 for the Jumo 222 (the Jumo 222 was miles away in front of the DB 604), the Flugmotorenwerke Ostmark (1000 engines per month).

As the problems of the Jumo 222 couldn't be solved (1941) both developments of the DB 603 and Jumo 213 were pushed, but their was no factory which were planed or built to produce them (except Flugmotoren Werk Ost which was planed and organized from tooling and sub-supplier for the Jumo 222). All other factorys were producing to the limit and couldn't be retooled without a major lost of engine/aircraft output.
This affected mainly Daimler Benz, because Junkers was able to retool factorys for the Jumo 211 to the Jumo 213 without output losses.

The advertisement of the Bomber A but mainly of the Bomber B cost the the Jumo 213 and the DB 603 3 years of major development time and much more importend three years of building production factorys.

So to my personal opinion, mainly the advertisement of the Bomber B was the grave digger of the LW besides the incompetence of Göring, Jeschonnek, Udet and partly Milch and later the reduced training program for pilots and the lack of fuel.

Realistically from a technical viewpoint you can get a FW 190 "longnose" powered and mass produced with DB 603 and Jumo 213 at the beginning of 1943 with a normal (four gondula) Bomber A- and without a Bomber B program.
Such an what if scenario would also changed all other major a/c's of the LW and the whole LW would have a very major performance boost.

FW 190 longnose at 1943 (no need of the development of the Me 209, 309 and Me (BV) 155)
Much earlier introduction of the FW 190 as fighter bomber with the BMW 801.
Ju 88 at 1943 with Jumo 213A and later 1943 with Jumo 213E (no need for the development of the He 219, Do 335 or Me 410)
Do 217 from the beginning with reliable engines. (production stop of the He 111 as 2 engine bomber)
He 177 from the beginning (1942) with reliable engines (no need of the Me 264, He 277)
Perhaps enough engines for the intoduction of the Ju 252 as mass produced transport aircraft.
More time for the proper development of the DB 605 with all it's issues to produce a better Me 109 for the east front or canceling the Me 109 after the F series to mass produce the FW 187 with DB 605.
No development and funding of the Ju 288, FW 191 and Do 307 (Bomber B)

 

[davebender]

1,560 hp.
Service life probably no more then 25 hours.
Not terribly impressive but it was good enough to power early model Fw-190s.

I suspect DB603 engine prototype was close to this level of performance during 1937 when RLM cancelled program funding. So why can't 1,560 hp DB603 engine be in mass production by 1940? All they need is RLM funding during 1937 to 1940. More powerful versions of DB603 would be introduced in due time.

 

[DonL]

Look at the changes from DB 600 to DB 601 to DB 605

Fuel injection, high pressure water cooling and roller bearings instead of sleeve bearings.
As we have seen at the development of the DB 600 to DB 601 (fuel injection and partly high pressure water cooling) to DB 605 (full integrated high pressure water cooling and roller bearings instead of sleeve bearings) this needs time and was all new, to all a/c engine producer around the world.

The DB 603 was not derivated from DB 601 it was derivated from the DB 600.
So all development changes from the DB 600 to the DB 605 must be also done to the DB 603.
Realistically you can start mass production for a reliable engine at 1942 to have an reliable engine with 1750PS and an altitude performance of 7000m.

Such an advertisement would be for a more powerful engine for a normal (4 gondula) Bomber A (1937/38 )

All other scenarios doesn't make sense, because such an engine would have a lower performance as the BMW 801 and the FW 190 was developed for the BMW 801, only the low performance at altitude of the BMW 801 did a rethinking and the quick alternative to try the DB 603 at 1942 (FW 190C V13 etc.).
And as we have discused 100 hundred times the BMW 801 engine was necessary, to get BMW as producer of a/c engines to have in summary the engines that were needed!

 

[davebender]

BMW had plenty of experience building liquid cooled V12 engines. Let them license build additional (and badly needed) DB601s. Then Germany would have enough fighter engines for their "second iron in the fire".

 

[DonL]

Dave the radial was wanted and to my opinion needed. Every big nation had significant high performance radials in production.
Radials had their advantages and the development of the german radials were funded 1935 with BMW 139 and the Bramo 329 what resulted in the BMW 801 1938.
You can't throw away three years of funding and development time.

 

[davebender]

It happens all the time and not just in Germany.

He-112 fighter aircraft.
He-100 fighter aircraft.
Fw-187 fighter aircraft.
DB603 engine.
DB604 engine.
Jumo 222 engine.
Fi-282 / Fi-285 helicopter.
Me-209 fighter aircraft.
Me-309 fighter aircraft.
Me-155 fighter aircraft.
Sd.Kfz.165 SP 10.5cm howitzer.
VK3001(H) medium tank.
Bomber B program.
Ju-252 transport aircraft.
German 7.5cm and 10.5cm recoilless rifles.
15cmK39 long range howitzer.
Me-210 / Me-410 light bomber.
etc.
etc.

 

[DonL]

He-112 fighter aircraft. (lost against the Bf 109 of an advertisement)
He-100 fighter aircraft. (was too late without evaporation cooling)
Fw-187 fighter aircraft. (we have discused this issue)
DB603 engine. (no advertisement and so no requirement in reality of the RLM 1937)
DB604 engine. (not a singleone was ever in the air, lost the advertisement against the Jumo 222)
Jumo 222 engine. (the problems with the crank shaft couldn't be solved)
Fi-282 / Fi-285 helicopter.
Me-209 fighter aircraft. (no more performance then the Bf 109 G and the Fw 190 A)
Me-309 fighter aircraft. (no more performance then the Bf 109 G and the Fw 190 A)
Me-155 fighter aircraft. (much too late and also not enough performance against FW 190 D-9)
Sd.Kfz.165 SP 10.5cm howitzer. (no advertisement no requirement)
VK3001(H) medium tank. (obsolete through inclined armour layouts, not in production so PIV "long" was prefered
Bomber B program. (we have discused this Ju 288 with Jumo 222 didn't functioned without major issues)
Ju-252 transport aircraft. (not enough Jumo 211 engines for a transport aircraft)
German 7.5cm and 10.5cm recoilless rifles.
15cmK39 long range howitzer. (was introduced at the Wehrmacht, was much to heavy with very lttle performance for such a heavy gun)
Me-210 / Me-410 light bomber. ( was intoduced as Me 410 and is a very wrong example here, because it didn't fit)
etc.
etc.

 

[alejandro_]

The whole problem of the LW wasn't the technology of aircrafts it was the too late development of their engines and no factory's to produce them (mainly for the DB 603, only partly for the Jumo 213)

Also, the DB 603 were needed for Bf 410. The Luftwaffe believed this aircraft was going be critical, thus priority was given to it's design and production. I don't think many people predicted the battles that were going to take place above Germany against B-17/24 and escorting fighters. Galland believed that the Mediterranean theater would be the most important in 1943.

 

[Shortround6]

BMW had plenty of experience building liquid cooled V12 engines. Let them license build additional (and badly needed) DB601s. Then Germany would have enough fighter engines for their "second iron in the fire".

BMW had experience in building WW I technology V-12s. Large displacement slow rpm engines with separate cylinders.

Granted they powered the vast majority of the emerging Luftwaffe aircraft but their replacement by Bramo and BMW 9 Cylinder radials under 2/3rds the displacement shows how far out of touch they were with modern engine design.

Having MORE than one engine company is not only another "iron in the fire", it is a way to stimulate progress, "Frans, you say your company cannot make a 1400hp engine? Company XXX says they can, think about where the next contract goes???"

Or if your ONE company design team comes up with a piece of dog doo-doo like the Jumo 222. If the "second Iron in the fire" is just making licence built engines you have no alternative.

 

[riacrato]

Hmm, i might be wrong but i think BMW was involved with DB601 production in one way or another. We have some leftover assembly tooling here in Allach (fixtures mostly) and the 601 is prominently featured in our on site museum. I work at the successor company.

DonL you meant the internal/external supercharger air intakes i guess. Not exhausts.

Funny thing is the FW 190 C seems to have been ordered or at least was treated as such by some higher ranking individuals in the RLM as D. Hermann says its in some delivery schedules for 1943. No primary source why this was later revoked seems to have been found yet. I guess at the time it was still thought the 109 G and 190 A could cope with any enemy so a better plane was not needed and as so often priority of this scarce engine was given to offensive aircraft deemed more important such as the Do 217 and Me 410.

I dare say though the difference it would've made is overstated by many. Until end of 1943 the LW held its own against the bombers and the escorts if it encountered any. As far as fighter-fighter combat goes the mustang is about as good as the fw 190c but numbers, replacement pilots, situation, strategy... all those were still in favour of the allies. So at best you have a few weeks more before the jagdwaffe breaks and one excuse less that it did.

 

[davebender]

Having MORE than one engine company is not only another "iron in the fire", it is a way to stimulate progress

I agree.

Full speed ahead with DB603 engine program so BMW801 engine program will have some competition. Or else keep Bramo separate and give them the same large radial engine contract as BMW. Then let the chips fall where they may at the engine competition.

 

[alejandro_]

Here is a climb rate comparison. At low altitude the Fw 190 A-3 holds well, but losses ground at higher altitudes.

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi, alejandro,
When was the DB-603A operating on C3? Wonder why would it do better above it's FTH?

 

[wiking85]

Hi, alejandro,
When was the DB-603A operating on C3? Wonder why would it do better above it's FTH?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_603#Prototypes_and_other_versions
AFAIK the 603A never ran on C3...only the prototype N series used C3.

 

[silence]

Just imagine the performance of a Dora with a 603N!

 

[wiking85]

Just imagine the performance of a Dora with a 603N!

2800hp is only the 5 min. max. Combat power was 1900hp.

 

[davebender]

That sounds cool. However real world Fw-190A2s apparently gave the RAF a hard time when powered by 1,539hp BMW801C engines.

Better to have a reliable 1,600hp DB603 engine during 1941 then a DB603N engine during 1945 (i.e. after war was already lost).

 

[jim]

Dave the radial was wanted and to my opinion needed. Every big nation had significant high performance radials in production.
Radials had their advantages and the development of the german radials were funded 1935 with BMW 139 and the Bramo 329 what resulted in the BMW 801 1938.
You can't throw away three years of funding and development time.

Mr DonL
With the knowledge that we have today , i believe we can agree that BMW 801 was a failure
Never bacame truly reliable
Never had a good power to weight ratio despite it used C3 fuel
Never had even decent altitude performance
Needed that cooling fan behind the propelller that was consuming valuable power
Very inefficient supercharger

The resources and the c3 fuel could had been used for much better projects like Jumo 211R , additionals and faster developed DB605s

 

[tomo pauk]

I wouldn't say the BMW-801 was a failure. It did have had a long gestation period, and, even in 1942 (when operating restricted), gave the RAF bloody nose when powering Fw-190. It became reliable in late 1942. Problem with 801 was that it never received 2-stage supercharger, IIRC that upgrade was deemed unnecessary because RLM thought the jest will became reality sooner than it really happened. The another thing is stubborn retainment of internal air intakes, reducing the harvesting of ram effect - bad for high altitude performance. The fan was enabling better streamlining, so it was a good trade-off.
The weight drag creep, started with Fw-190A-6, again did nothing to ease the burden on 801.
One of engine shortcomings was the inability to use MW-50 as ADI, needing C3 as ADI instead.

 

[davebender]

I agree. However DB603 engine offered more bang for the buck.

DB603 prototype was running two years before BMW801 prototype and if properly funded I think Daimler-Benz would have maintained at least a two year development lead over BMW801. DB603 was also less expensive to produce, allowed a hub cannon, more reliable and smaller engine diameter made for better aerodynamics, especially in fighter aircraft. It's the engine Fw-190 should have been designed for from 1937 onward rather then betting on a radial engine which didn't even have a prototype running until Fw-190 design was well advanced.

Make BMW801 engine program a low development priority (i.e. similar to historical DB603 funding after 1940). If/when BMW801 engine starts looking promising then development funding gets increased. Otherwise the BMW801 program gets axed after a few years without entering mass production.