How soon could a DB-engined FW190 entered combat?

[wiking85]

As the title says, had the FW190 been designed around the DB liquid cooled engines how soon could it have entered production and then combat?
From what I gather from the Wikipedia article about it, there were lots of delays imposed by the BMW engines, which would not have plagued a FW190 airframe, though it would have been somewhat different being based around a smaller engine.
What kind of properties would it have had different than its radial counterpart other than better altitude performance?
When would it have entered production and then combat?
Let's assume that the DB engines are not in shortage.

Is 1940 too early? What about March 1941?

 

[davebender]

1940 works if you want the aircraft powered by a DB601 engine. You can have a DB603 engine during 1941 if RLM doesn't cancel program funding during 1937 to 1940.

Personally I see little reason to power the Fw-190 with a DB601 engine. By 1938 the DB601 powered Me-109, He-112B and Fw-187 fighter aircraft were production ready or close to it. That's three "irons in the fire" using the existing DB601 engine. The next generation Fw-190 should use the more powerful DB603 engine.

 

[wuzak]

What about the DB 605?

It doesn't need a funding change to be around earlier.

 

[stona]

I think going from a first flight of the first prototype in June 1939 into sevice during 1940,assuming this is a "what if" and the aircraft has been designed around the Daimler Benz engine is still an optimistic time frame.
It may have been possible,had the installation of the liquid cooled engine been a seamless affair without any technical problems itself,particularly during the design and development of its own cooling system,to get the aircraft to the Luftwaffe for early 1941.It was originally hoped that II./JG 26 would be equipped at this time. It was after this time that the real delay developed,though by late July 1941 22 Fw 190 A-1s were delivered.
There were still problems primarily with the engine which typically for German production noone would take responsibility for. I think it is reasonable to assume that these problems would not have arisen with the tried and tested Daimler Benz engine.
This is why the Fw 190 didn't start its operational service until mid August 1941.
I reckon a trouble free installation of a Daimler Benz engine might have knocked six months off this date and possibly got the aircraft in service by early 1941.
That might have forced Leigh Mallory to cease his bloody operations accross the Channel sooner and actually save some RAF pilots!

The RAF's first victory over a Fw 190 was on 18th September. The RAF mis-identified the victim as a Curtiss Hawk which they believed the Luftwaffe were using as trainers.This despite British Intelligence services knowing about the type and its designation in late 1940.

Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

DB605 was not a separate engine program. It's essentially just a newer version of the DB601.

 

[Denniss]

DB605 was not a separate engine program. It's essentially just a newer version of the DB601.

Not really, it had multiple internal changes to permit easier/cheaper production, higher rpm and increased boost pressures. You could call it a complete rework of the DB 601.

 

[Civettone]

Denniss, wouldnt you say the DB 601E was a complete rework of the DB 601N, and the DB 605A a bore-enlarged DB 601E ? Or am I missing something?

Kris

 

[Denniss]

No, the 601E was an evolution of the earlier 601 series combined with pressurized water cooling.
The 605 was more than just a 601 with enlarged bore.

 

[Shortround6]

See: Daimler-Benz

Scroll down past the pictures.

 

[Civettone]

Yep, that's what I thought: the DB 601E was the real technological change. The DB 605A was basically an enlarged DB 601E.

Kris

 

[Civettone]

Would you have similar information about the DB 603? My understanding is that the DB 603 - at least originally - was merely an enlarged DB 601A. But I guess the modifications of the DB 601E were by 1943 also applied to the DB 603.

As a second question, I wonder if anyone knows why the DB 603AM or any other methanol cooling system on the DB 603 didn't appear. The Jumo 213 was able to get it. IIRC it took until the DB 603LA (for Ta 152C) before it became standard for the DB 603 series. But those were of course never produced in any large numbers.

Kris

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi, Kris, glad to have you back

As a second question, I wonder if anyone knows why the DB 603AM or any other methanol cooling system on the DB 603 didn't appear. The Jumo 213 was able to get it. IIRC it took until the DB 603LA (for Ta 152C) before it became standard for the DB 603 series. But those were of course never produced in any large numbers.

This table mentions the DB-603AM (the 603A with MW-50 and C3 fuel):

GED0106

 

[davebender]

RLM cancelled funding for the DB603 engine program during 1937 to 1940. The DB603 was funded during 1941 to 1945 but it never had the same level of support as Junkers V12 engines. So it's no surprise DB603 engine development lagged DB605 engine development.

 

[Civettone]

Hey Tomislav, glad to see you too ! I have been following your posts in the last months, great topics, I like how you are still building on your what-if ideas.
I know that table and it is one of the reasons why I am curious about these subversions: I don't find specific German references to them actually being produced.

Dave, did the Jumo 213 receive official backing? I was under the understanding that Junkers went after the DB 603 section in the market.

Kris

 

[davebender]

Jumo 211 was the priority German V12 engine prior to 1941. Jumo 213 is derived from Jumo 211 so I assume it had priority also.

I'm under the impression Junkers was rather slow developing the Jumo 211 into the Jumo 213. That's why it entered mass production so late. After it was production ready the Jumo 213 engine was built in large numbers. 99 engines during Junuary 1944, increasing to 960 engines during December 1944.

The DB603 engine could probably have been production ready during 1941. With priority similiar to Jumo 213 Daimler-Benz could have been churning out 900 DB603 engines per month by January 1943. That would have made the Luftwaffe a considerably tougher nut to crack.

Jumo 213 Engine Production.
Junkers Engines - Jumo 213

 

[Civettone]

I think the DB 601 was priority up to 1941: it was more advanced and non-fighter aircraft got Jumo's - derived from the previous Jumo 210 fighter engine - as a substitute. Or am I missing something?

Kris

 

[davebender]

What are you basing that on? Certainly not engine factory construction.

Prior to mid 1940 the DB601 engine was produced in a single factory (Genshagen) designed to produce 220 engines per month.

Jumo 211 production was established on a much larger scale. In fact Jumo 211 production was so successful they had surplus capacity by 1942.
Junkers Engines - Jumo 211

Dessau 1086 prototypes, test engines
Magdeburg 24267 July 1937 to Aug. 1944
Kothen 20911 1938 to Feb. 1944
Leipzig 17032 1942 to Aug. 1944
Stettin 4714 only 1942
Strassburg 238 1943 to Feb. 1944

 

[stona]

To be precise Daimler Benz's original engine plant in the Berlin area was at Marienfelde.

Daimler-Benz was a large company with plants and subsidiaries all over Germany. The Genshagen plant was built as a modern facility expressly to produce aero engines.

Here is not the place for the Machievellian ins and outs of the RLM v DB negotiations that led to the establishment of the Genshagen plant. Eventually the Daimler-Benz Motor Company Genshagen was formed in January 1936 as a susidiary of Daimler-Benz AG to produce aero engines.
The Marienfelde plant became a repair and parts plant according to RLM (not Daimler Benz) wishes.
The new company was capitalised to the tune of RM 14 million,13.75 million from the RLM and a nominal 0.75 million from Daimler Benz. This capital was soom increase to RM 20 million,entirely at RLM expense. Daimler-Benz retained an option to buy the new plant.
The plant was built in eight months. The first engine,a DB 600 made from parts from Marienfelde was completed in February 1937. The skilled labour force came from Daimler Benz's South German plants and from BMW. There were 5,813 workers by the summer of 1937.

I would suggest that both the level of investment and speed with which the plans were effected would imply that production of Daimler-Benz aero engines was a priority for the RLM in the late nineteen thirties.

Steve

 

[alejandro_]

Focke Wulf tested 3 prototypes to assess performance of Fw 190 with DB 603. Fw 190 V-13, V-15 and V-16. The last one flew in August 1942. There were no major problems with the installation and in a few months production could have been started. I have created a graph comparing Fw 190 A and C performance.

 

[Gixxerman]

Focke Wulf tested 3 prototypes to assess performance of Fw 190 with DB 603. Fw 190 V-13, V-15 and V-16. The last one flew in August 1942. There were no major problems with the installation and in a few months production could have been started. I have created a graph comparing Fw 190 A and C performance.

Well that's news to me, I thought the issue with the Fw190C was the turbocharger.
Not only did they never quite get it right but they had not the materials to make enough of them nor the machine tools available to make them in any volume.
Hence the look at alternatives like MW 50 GM 1.

Germany had all sorts of proposed turbo versions of engines but few got very far for the above reasons.

Or have I got this wrong?