How would the Allies have dealt with large numbers of ME 262s?

[oldcrowcv63]

Was the Soviet occcupation of Romania the main factor to the abrupt drop in '44?

I'm still puzzled by the disparity in the two graphs posted earlier that supposedly address the same quantity. The av-gas production appears to have dropped before soviet occupation in mid-44. I expect the small drop in the mid-summer 1943 shown in the green graph was the result of the oil field bombing campaign and destruction of stocks and transportation infrastructure may account for the major drop thereafter. That's my guess but I really don't have information to support it, other than the dates of the mid summer 43 bombing and soviet occupation which seems to post date the drop. I understand the mid summer Tidal Wave bombing campaign had little to no effect on production or supplies.

 

[awack]

With all the mass out on the wings, I seriously doubt it would out-roll may fighters ... but well might do so above 400 - 450 mph TAS since it designed more for those speeds than the pistons were. It also didn't have "tons" of fuel. It had about 3,200 pounds for 475 US gallons. That's about 1.6 tons, so it doesn't even make 2 tons.

The me 262 actually carried 565 imp gallons of fuel which translates to 678 US gallons, two 198 imp gallon tanks, one 132 imp gallon tank and one 37 imp gallon tank , in other words, it carried a poop load of fuel, so instead of fuel imagine part way through your flight in the me 262 you dump a couple thousand pounds of bombs, what kinda effect is that going to have on climb? Yeah, Erich Brown tested a two seat version of the me 262, and got 3.8 seconds at 400 mph at 5000 ft, ive heard of one other test that got even better results, but don't know much about the test, in other words I cant put a lot of faith in it. I would imagine the boosted ailerons of the p38 was better at high speed than the me 262 though.

 

[GregP]

3.8 seconds at 400 mph at 5,000 feet to do what, fart?

Sorry, 3.8 seconds at 400 mph at 5,000 feet isn't a measurement I understand. It gives me a speed, an altitude, and a time to do something. I assume you mean 3.8 seconds to climb to some change in altitude. It certainly wouldn't climb from sea level to 5,000 feet in 3.8 seconds regardless of any circumstances ... especially since the climb rate was less than 5,000 feet per minute by a decent margin.

The flight tests of the Me 262 are pretty specific and the climb wasn't measured much with a bonb load being carried. It was measure after the bomb load was gone in the ones I've seen ... since nobody would get into a dogfight of any sort with a load of bombs.

 

[awack]

Im sorry, that's how long it took to complete a 360 degree roll.

Anyway, low slow and full of fuel like say just after take off, the me 262 was dead meat against the best piston engine fighters.

 

[parsifal]

I dont know the basis of the claims for Me 262 having better roll rates and manouverability are coming from, or for its alleged climb advanatages either. They are unsubstantiated claims, and not supported by some very knowdgeable commentators. The 262 dide have some priceless advantages...speed, firepower being the chief advanatages. The rest look totally bogus, at least when compared to the Meteor III and later.

T.A Gardiner, author and contributor to the armchair General Forum, had this to say recently

"The 262 really has some problems that are not totally obvious.

A lot of those are with the engines. The Jumo 004 cannot be quickly throttled up or down due to its design. The hydraulic zweibel has to be moved in or out along with adjusting the fuel mixture. This combination changed too fast can kill the engine, cause a loss of power and/or cause an engine fire. So, the 262 pilot has to be very gentle on the throttle meaning acceleration is less than it might otherwise be.

Adding to this is an inlet design deficiency. Now, with early jets these things were not uncommon so I'm not faulting Messerschmitt for it because they simply didn't have any experiance to draw on in this respect. Anyway, if the 262 pitches up or down quickly it or is put into a tight climbing or diving turn it will often result in a loss of air pressure in the inlet side of the engine and the engine will quit. While a restart is possible it is hardly something you want to be doing in combat.

The Meteror's centrifugal W2 Dewent engines don't suffer from this problem like the axial Jumo 004 does so the Meteor is not restricted in maneuvering in those ways.

Both aircraft had problems with having too small a rudder surface and both have some aileron problems but the 262 in both cases are worse. The 262 also suffers from very high stick forces on all control surfaces making maneuver at high speed difficult.

The Meteor also has dive brakes fitted. These could be a nasty surprise to a 262 pilot.

Neither has any advantage in a dive and the Meteor has an advantage in climb rate. I don't know which might have an advantage, if any, in energy maneuvering.

For the 262 its only real means of attacking is to try and make shallow high speed diving passes with a zoom climb away much like a P-38 on a Zero. The problem here is that the 'Zero' is now a Meteor that can come after you.

The Meteor definitely has a much better turn and roll rate than the 262. In a dogfight those could very well determine the winner.

The 262 is slightly faster in level flight but this is hardly an advantage on its own.

The Meteor's high velocity rapid fire 20mm Hispanos are far superior in fighter on fighter combat to the low velocity slower firing 30mm Mk 108's on the 262. Basically, the 262 is optimized as a bomber killer. It can make high speed passes on a formation and take down a slow moving large bomber in one pass zooming away afterwards.

In a turning fight or one that requires hard maneuvering it is almost certainly doomed. The 262 has to keep its speed up and not get into a turning fight with its opponent".

Take it or leave it guys, but the 262 is, according to this comment, definately not the all conquering panacea its disciples are trying to have us believe.

 

[nuuumannn]

I found a quote that might be of passing interest from German test pilot Walter Kroeger who flew the Ar 234 prototypes, witnessing a demo of the Arado's manoeuvrability against the Me 262 at a display of aircraft by high ranking officials at Rechlin in June 1944:

"During the second day's show on 13 June [1944] the course of events was interrupted when both of the Me 262s provided troubles starting up. The Ar 234, which had just gotten airborne was told by radio to fill the gap by extending its performance. Eheim subsequently gave such an impressive demonstration of the Ar 234's manoeuvrability that Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch asked to be introduced to the pilot and also called for a mock dogfight between an Me 262 and the Ar 234. As a result the Ar 234 demonstrated its marked superiority in a turning dogfight; the Ar 234 V10 bought its guns [figuratively speaking, I suspect - don't jump to conclusions] to bear on the Me 262 several times. The Me 262 however, as able to escape by outdistancing its adversary. Overall impression of the Ar 234 was very favourable."

 

[Milosh]

The throttles of the Jumo 004B could be moved as fast as the pilot wanted to as long as the rpm was above 6000.

 

[awack]

Yeah, ive read post war accounts from us test pilots that the AR 234 was quite maneuverable, but mostly in its roll rate.

To Parsifal, the me 262 had a good high speed roll rate, but not in its turning capability, I know some people say that it could turn sharper at higher speeds but I don't know enough to give an opinion on that.

[QUOTE The Meteor definitely has a much better turn and roll rate than the 262. In a dogfight those could very well determine the winner.][/QUOTE]

Post war Meteors did have good roll rates but the war time Meteor III seems to be very, very poor, according to test pilots, a couple of changes to the Meteor III, like introducing the long engine nacelles during the war and Lightening the aileron forces would in my opinion made it the best allied fighter of the war, even better than my favorite piston engine fighter the Spitfire XIV.

 

[nuuumannn]

my favorite piston engine fighter the Spitfire XIV.

You have good taste! Terrific aeroplane.

 

[Jenisch]

I'm still puzzled by the disparity in the two graphs posted earlier that supposedly address the same quantity. The av-gas production appears to have dropped before soviet occupation in mid-44. I expect the small drop in the mid-summer 1943 shown in the green graph was the result of the oil field bombing campaign and destruction of stocks and transportation infrastructure may account for the major drop thereafter. That's my guess but I really don't have information to support it, other than the dates of the mid summer 43 bombing and soviet occupation which seems to post date the drop. I understand the mid summer Tidal Wave bombing campaign had little to no effect on production or supplies.

Well, both the bombing and the occupation of Romania did affected the same targets (Rumanian oil facilities). But the Allied bombing also hit the oil plants in Germany. And those oil plants hit in Germany were also destroyed by the RAF. So, the question would be how much damage the Rumanian oil industry suffered in the first six months of 1944, due to American bombing, and also how much the oil facilities in Germany suffered due to USAAF bombing (this needs to be understood, because if the American attacks were the most important ones and the RAF could not have "substitute" them, the scenario might be affected if the Me 262s had the capability to seriously affect the USAAF attacks).

Also, in the previous post, I suppose you got my idea: if the Germans had Romania as their primary oil source (actually I don't know if it was by late 1943), and the German jets could not have prevented the Red Army from occupying that country, then at the maximum it would be a question of attrition to the defeat of Germany. Of course that the Germans would have inflicted more casualities in the Allies had the war lasted longer. However, would such casualities be enough to compell the Allies that the Nazis should be allowed to survive? Because even if D-Day didn't occured, the Soviets would be in Poland by mid-1944 (again, supposing that the jets did not interfere in the Eastern Front). Since I don't know if the Allied jets could have been in larger numbers and earlier in operation, I will say that at the maximum, like historically, by mid-1945 the Allies could have had a considerable number of jets in service (it was planned for the invasion of Japan, which presumably would be delayed in case Germany resisted). But by this time, I will risk to say that the Soviets may have already well occupied the Reich and thus the war could have been over regardless of D-Day (which some members are saying that the jets will prevent from happening).

 

[fastmongrel]

Been doing some reading on the DH Vampire and its long development, it certainly seems that if it had been needed it could have been in service a lot earlier than it was. The design changed several times, production was moved and the prototypes engine was removed and sent to the US. If the RAF had received strong intel that the 262 was going to be in service earlier and in larger numbers this long, leisurely and rambling development could have had money and men (it seems to have been a side project for DH) thrown at it and possibly be in service early/mid 44. Whether it had the legs to do escort work is another matter I am not qualified to say.

 

[parsifal]

Post war Meteors did have good roll rates but the war time Meteor III seems to be very, very poor, according to test pilots, a couple of changes to the Meteor III, like introducing the long engine nacelles during the war and Lightening the aileron forces would in my opinion made it the best allied fighter of the war, even better than my favorite piston engine fighter the Spitfire XIV.

That would be in direct contrsdiction to Gardiners assessment

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The throttles of the Jumo 004B could be moved as fast as the pilot wanted to as long as the rpm was above 6000.

Where is that referenced?

The me 262 couldn't out turn piston engine fighters, but it could definitely out roll them at speed, at slow speed pilots describe it as feeling like a heavy aircraft though, actual testing shows it could slightly out roll the 190a at high speed but trounce aircraft like the standard wing spitfire and zero etc, etc...

Again, where is this shown? At what speeds are we talking about?

I've found nothing mentioned in any of the make shift flight manuals on roll rates at given speeds (I'm not at home and have limited access to the internet where I'm at) but from memory I remember something like a 3 second roll rate for the 262, it might be mentioned here...

WWII Aircraft Performance

This discussion could be better served if real life no BS references (flight manuals, performance trials) could be provided for performance characteristics rather than some on-line biased website or some blurb from an Osprey book written 30 years ago by someone who's never flown an aircraft...

 

[Kryten]

considering the weight of those engines and nacelles I'm highly dubious a 262 could out roll very much at all!

 

[nuuumannn]

Been doing some reading on the DH Vampire and its long development

The Vampire is a much underrated aircraft and it is often overlooked that it was actually a WW2 design, especially considering its longevity postwar (which is of no consequence to this discussion). Unfortunately the Vampire didn't have the legs to be a fighter escort, but was a slick dog fighter. The Vampire F.1 was actually faster in level flight and had a higher rate of climb than the Me 262.

One fact that is often overlooked regarding the history of the Me 262 is that the Gloster Meteor I entered frontline squadron service before the Me 262, although '262s had already equipped Ekdo 262, which was not a frontline squadron as such, a matter of weeks before the Meteors went to 616 Sqn in July 1944. The Me 262 did not reach a full squadron until October '44. The Meteor was certainly ready for squadron service before the Me 262.

 

[Erich]

this thread continues to be convoluted a question to the origins what are we frankly talking about surely not Metoer.s, Migs or other jet involvement but how the US only or British as well would of had to contend/reality check out up equal numbers of piston jobs to stop 262 incursions on the Us bomber force during the start of the US bombing campaign or later ?

secondary note as I have privately written Greg about future sources of the Ta this surrounds JG 3o1 as a whole and there is new info that has not been used for the past 35 years sitting under authors noses neer applied nor backed as written materials including what cI found in the 1960's of the Ta 152 H/N. Reschke has admitted to me and others he enver had full useage of all materials at his disposal n cross checking into US/soviet archival references and reality check the former pilots have forgotten or fallen off the face of the earth....... this is starting to change...... similiarly the myth's surrounding the use of TA's for A/F 262 high cover which is a load of crock and it's origins to combat the B-29's future in the ETO.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

One fact that is often overlooked regarding the history of the Me 262 is that the Gloster Meteor I entered frontline squadron service before the Me 262, although '262s had already equipped Ekdo 262, which was not a frontline squadron as such, a matter of weeks before the Meteors went to 616 Sqn in July 1944. The Me 262 did not reach a full squadron until October '44. The Meteor was certainly ready for squadron service before the Me 262.

This is 100% correct and mentioned in Ed Jablownski's series "Airwar"

 

[GregP]

First, thank you Erich for the PM with some info. I appreciate it and would like to go on record as on the list for a copy.

And now an observation ...

I am seriously wondering about the Ta 152H service. It is verifiable that they went into service in late January 1945 (27th?). The first victory wasn't until 3 March 1945. There was not another victory until 14 April 1945 and all of the rest of the victories and losses in the air came in April 1945. So my question was and is, "The Third Reich was being bombed daily by hundreds if not 1,000 Allied bombers. What were the Ta 152's DOING for all of February and March, except for the 3rd, if not flying ops?" It's not like there weren't any targets.

My own conclusions is one of three or four possibilities:

1) They were cowards and avoided combat. I reject that since the Ta 152's were assigned to ecperienced combat pilots. The Ta 152's were not assigned to green pilots or should not have been.

2) They were assigned specific duties that kept them from aerial combat with other fighters. Lends credence to the Me 262 top cover story but, again, I can't say from personal research. I wouldn't know where to start looking for the documents and don't read German anyway.

3) They were working up to operational status. Could be but experienced combat pilots don't need a month to trransition into what is essentially the same aircraft with new wings. And Keil got a victory on 3 March 1945. What happened to the REST of March? I don't know.

4) Maybe the weather was awful on the ground where the Ta 152's were based? Could be at that time of the year in Germany. Hell disassanble them and truck them to a new base. Wouldn't take more than a week.

5) They were very unlucky and simply didn't see any Allied planes? Hardly seems likely, but possible, After several days of it, I would have moved to where the bombs were falling to fly ops.

It's like they disappeared for 10 weeks when the war was in the last critical stages ... it is not logical in the slightest.

Anybody know why the Ta 152's were absent without leave for February, March and the first two seeks of April except for one recorded kill by Keil? Why wait until mid-April? I just don't get it.

Edit: Just read the post below and it IS off-topic. Shelf it and I'll start a new thread to discuss it.

 

[pattern14]

Another intriguing thread that goes off topic regularly, but I find those tangents more interesting than the original post. Not sure why anybody wants to argue the toss about Me 262/meteor comparisons; the original 262 1a was superior in performance to its Mk 1 meteor "rival'. It does appear that that post war variants of allied jets get mixed up with the original models at times during these lively discussions. Please correct me, but I believe that the original combatants 616 squadron, accounted for only 16 V1's ( compared to countless shot down by piston engine fighters), plus a number of retreating German ground columns. I believe a handful of parked Luftwaffe aircraft were also accounted for as they stood helpless on the ground. There was one actual air to air with a Fiesler Storch (!!!), but the Storch easily evaded the meteor, and actually landed, enabling the crew to escape. The Storch was then strafed as it stood immobile as well. Didn't Eric Brown state that the 262 would have made "cats meat" out of the meteor, and didn't Adolf Galland say much the same some years later. They both flew the respective planes, and did not read about them in some Osprey book. As for the first operational meteors, their 20 mm cannons jammed on their first mission, and continued to do so on a regular basis for the remainder of their service. The meteor went on to serve with distinction post war, and certainly improved with subsequent Mk's, but in its original ww2 form, it was outclassed by the Me 262. And to answer the original question.....the most amount of 262's to fly in one day was only about 50 (records are slightly inaccurate here). If they were to put up 300 or so, it would have been carnage. I'm also glad some one finally mentioned the popular myth that Ta 152's were used to defend the 262's over their airfields. That never happened, and it was usually FW190's, and occasionally Bf 109's. I've just got a copy of Harmanns excellent reference text on the Ta 152, so I'll see what it says about their strange leave of absence. I'm guessing I might know, but I'll see what the experts say.

 

[silence]

Anybody know why the Ta 152's were absent without leave for February, March and the first two seeks of April except for one recorded kill by Keil? Why wait until mid-April? I just don't get it.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if its simply a case of nothing was confirmed, especially considering the chaos in military leadership at this time. They may have been - probably were - flying, but simply no one got around to processing their claims before May 8.