How would the Allies have dealt with large numbers of ME 262s?

[pattern14]

Hi Pattern





if you dont do things right you can get some weird looking texts.

Hope that helps mate

Thanks Parsifal; it's still giving me a nose bleed though

 

[pattern14]

Claimed aces, not confirmed aces. theres a difference. Operationally, it managed to shoot down 150 enemy aircraft in the air, whilst losing a similar number itself, as a fighter, thats less than an adequate performance. More to the point, of the 1400 produced, less than 200 were operational, moreover for most of its service life if there were 200 operational, typically 25 might be servicable, on a good day. What were the serviceability rates of say Me 109s at this time. I think the LW would have been far better off just churning out more 109s or FWs at the end (early 44 onward). they would have improved their availability rates vastly if they had, and a much higher allied loss rate would have ensured. If they had produced 2000 extra 109s as a result of not building the 262, and we assume an overall serrvi8ceability rate for proven types of 70% (more or less the rate applicable to the LW as a whole in '44), and the exchange rate of around 2 losses for each shoot down, then the allies would have sufereed 1000 losses from the extra 109s, instead of the 150 they lost from the 262s.









QUOTE] tried again but this does look weird like you said. Anyway.....Production of the Bf 109 was still very high right up to the end of '44, regardless of the bombing. Synthetic fuel was in very short supply, pilots shorter, and experienced pilots even more so. J2 jet fuel was more readily available, as it was made from brown coal. Galland said that one Me 262 was worth 5 Bf 109's, and I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. Short of developing the atomic bomb, there was nothing that would have changed the outcome. It was cutting edge technology, and with all the pitfalls that come with it. All I am trying to get across was that the Me 262 achieved more in those final months than any other conventional luftwaffe fighter. It was definitely not a failure, but the shape of things to come. The allies didn't need jets to win, as they were going to win anyway, but the Germans needed all the help they could get.

 

[tomo pauk]

Proper time for more Bf-109s was during 1939-43, but not 1944-45.
In 1944-45 Germans do not have trained manpower to pilot the supposed increased number of planes, nor they have fuel for them (neither for the historical number of fighters produced). The better performing fighter (and that basically means a jet) should reverse the performance advantage the P-51 and P-47 were enjoying at typical ETO altitudes, and the fuel for a jet was far better choice than B4, C3, plus all those MW-50 and GM-1 additives.

 

[stona]

German disparities are even more inexplicable ....around 30000 lost in combat, but over 100000 lost in total. this just doesnt correlate to the table youve posted.
I dont profess to know the answer to this, but is anything but simple

They are and I don't profess to know why either. I've seen some fairly wild explanations offered. One author suggested that they may have lost 20% of their fighter production between factory and air park which seems unlikely
Cheers
Steve

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Test pilot captain Eric Brown of Britain, is the one who conducted the test of the me 262, again it was at 5000ft at 400 mph the result was 3.8 seconds for one complete roll, it was the 2 seat model, he also gave stick forces.

Test pilot captain Eric Brown of Britain was one of the most talented and experienced test pilots of his day however some of his colorful and opinionated pilot reports reflect more of a wine critic/ connoisseur than of a non-biased test pilot. No disrespect for the man, he's spent more time passing gas in the cockpit than I have total flight time but he was highly opinionated!

3.8 sec roll rate is good for the era but not spectacular, and also remember the 262 had g limitations at high speeds.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg

 

[awack]

3.8 sec roll rate is good for the era but not spectacular, and also remember the 262 had g limitations at high speeds.

I would like to know its best roll rate and at what speed it was achieved, some fighters took all day to roll at at 400 mph at 5000 to 10000 ft...the me 262 and p51 seem to be two of the best rollers at high speed, infact the me 262 really was at its best at high speed, its acceleration, its climb, its handling, like all early jets it did have a snaking problem at speed, conversely, at 200 mph it couldn't out climb, out roll or out accelerate any late war prop plane as far as I know

 

[Erich]

curious where 150 kill figure comes from as you are way off ............... 262 war diary confirms over 200 alone in it not counting what I have repeated about Soviet air losses which we plain do not have totals for. lets face it argue all you want the aluminum swallow was a success story even in it's limited numbers // now back to the whit if's of 1943 and how would the Allies cope instead of the bounce to fuels and charts which make no sense to the thread.

 

[stona]

Surely any units war diary confirms claims at this time in the war.
We know that 500+ claims were made for the Me 262 but that does not equate to that number of enemy aircraft destroyed. As I and someone else (might even have been you ) have already pointed out, by October/November 1944 the claims verification system had collapsed.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

confirmation is from existing war diaries and flugbuchs really the only way of knowing but still shakey ............. as I stated so many times the JG 7 claims of 425 Allied craft shot down is bogus I give them roughly 1/2 and I am probably being good at that.....if you read the existing JG 7 war diary much of even the claims do not make sense, results are way too brief.

 

[GregP]

Hi Fastmongrel,

Regarding post 235, when I saw the STOVL take off vertically, it lifted vertically the same as a Harrier. It is MUCH easier to fly when in vertical mode ... like a video game almost. Steve Hinton has lown the simnulator and says it is extremely simple to hover and hover-taxi. The software makes it easy.

I think you'll see it can operate from almost esxactly the same spaces as a Harrier. The only reason it is STOVL is they want to hang a lot of weight on it. It also has a VTOL weight ... its just lighter than STOVL weight.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I would like to know its best roll rate and at what speed it was achieved, some fighters took all day to roll at at 400 mph at 5000 to 10000 ft...the me 262 and p51 seem to be two of the best rollers at high speed, infact the me 262 really was at its best at high speed, its acceleration, its climb, its handling, like all early jets it did have a snaking problem at speed, conversely, at 200 mph it couldn't out climb, out roll or out accelerate any late war prop plane as far as I know

At the rear of the 868 report may answer some of your questions...

(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...tml#post995858 (Relative Rolling Characteristics of WWII Fighters)) a report was found: http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-868.pdf.

 

[pattern14]

curious where 150 kill figure comes from as you are way off ............... 262 war diary confirms over 200 alone in it not counting what I have repeated about Soviet air losses which we plain do not have totals for. lets face it argue all you want the aluminum swallow was a success story even in it's limited numbers // now back to the whit if's of 1943 and how would the Allies cope instead of the bounce to fuels and charts which make no sense to the thread.

I was still trying to get to the amount of the victories achieved, but had not got through the rest of the previous posts. Glad someone else thinks the Me 262 did Ok for itself. And yes, the Russian side of things are pretty obscure

 

[GregP]

The Russian side is not only obscure but also gets rewritten every so often to make it better. By now I'm sure they won the war on their own and decimated Germany without any assitance from the rest of the Allies. Getting a factual Soviet WWII history is a study in disinformation.

We may NEVER know. I'm sure the truth is buried somwhere in the basement of the Kremlin, but we'll never see it.

 

[SPEKTRE76]

They would have turned belly up and bailed out before getting in weapon range. Or they would have lurked in the clouds and dove in behind them and got them on their landing run. Or we would have had the P-80 and F-86 a lot sooner.

The Russian side is not only obscure but also gets rewritten every so often to make it better. By now I'm sure they won the war on their own and decimated Germany without any assitance from the rest of the Allies. Getting a factual Soviet WWII history is a study in disinformation.

We may NEVER know. I'm sure the truth is buried somwhere in the basement of the Kremlin, but we'll never see it.

Yeah this holds true in the game War Thunder. ALL of the Russian planes fly like physics does not apply to them and they seem to fire basket ball sized bullets at you no matter the caliber they say they have. They must have thought Erich Hartmann was just a myth like the Boogie Man.

 

[nuuumannn]

Pattern14, if you are still having trouble with quotes, try writing this

at the beginning of the section you wish highlight and end it with the same, but with a forward slash / between the first bracket [ and the word "quote" ]. The reason why I haven't written it is because the computer will think it's a command and do it like this:

The Me 262 was an excellent design, but was introduced into service prematurely and therefore production quality, pilot training etc suffered accordingly. Any build up of '262s at operational airfields in 1943 would have been photographed and through British spy networks and other intel the Allies would have been able to ascertain how many the Germans had and what operational status they were at - as what actually happened, thus negating any element of surprise, meaning that the ideal situation that many here dream of, of swarms of 262s swamping the bombers would not take place because of countermeasures by the Allies, like sustained attacks against airfields and production facilities. To believe that the Allies would allow such a scenario to transpire is foolish and at variance with reality. It's what they feared would take place and thus acted to prevent it.

Greg nailed it when he stated that the Allies did not feel there was too much need to introduce jet fighters to combat the '262s; the British had already begun to denounce the threat by late 1944, even though a report was released earlier that year stating that the Germans might have at least 300 operational by late '44 with a thousand in production. Once the British realised the German production rate and lack of jet aircraft opposing the invasion - and had evaluated wreckage of a '262 discovered in France and the first combat reports with '262s, the British began to play down the threat.

Greg, as for VTOL technology, don't forget the German VAK 191 test bed and VJ 101 supersonic fighter - the Germans put a lot of effort into developing a fighter that was free of the constraints of hard runways, being on the front line of any Cold War combat scenario. The Fiat G-91 was a response to a NATO common strike fighter which the Hawker P.1154 supersonic VTOL strike fighter that was eventually cancelled was offered to. The Germans bought the Gina. Perhaps the most bizarre was the ZELL concept of strapping an F-104 to a massive booster rocket. The French also developed the Mirage III/V Balzac.

 

[GregP]

Hi Erich,

I note you were saying proof comes from war diaries ... but aren't they somewhat proof of a claim and not a kill? If the pilot THINKS he shot somthing down, that's the definition of a claim, isn't it?

Confirmation comes from gun camera destruction or witnessed kills that hit the ground, blew up, the pilot bailed out, or ... very few other results.

Not arguing, trying to clarify your post.

 

[Juha]

The Russian side is not only obscure but also gets rewritten every so often to make it better. By now I'm sure they won the war on their own and decimated Germany without any assitance from the rest of the Allies. Getting a factual Soviet WWII history is a study in disinformation.

We may NEVER know. I'm sure the truth is buried somwhere in the basement of the Kremlin, but we'll never see it.

Just learn to read Russian and visit the Army Archives near Moscow, not as user friendly as most of Western Archives, but if one knows what one wants, not impossible. In fact there is an internet site where one can find all VVS personel losses by units and by names (in Russian). Naval aviation archieves are in St Petersburg, ex-Leningrad. The problem is the archieves of the Central Committee of the Communist Party which might well be in Kreml, are closed from foreigners, but if one is interested in tactical and operational matters, the answers can be found at the army and navy archives.

Juha

PS the Internet site seems to have moved or down since Dec 2010.

 

[silence]

Yeah this holds true in the game War Thunder. ALL of the Russian planes fly like physics does not apply to them and they seem to fire basket ball sized bullets at you no matter the caliber they say they have. They must have thought Erich Hartmann was just a myth like the Boogie Man.

Sounds like World of Tanks, too.

 

[silence]

Just learn to read Russian and visit the Army Archives near Moscow, not as user friendly as most of Western Archives, but if one knows what one wants, not impossible. In fact there is an internet site where one can find all VVS personel losses by units and by names (in Russian). Naval aviation archieves are in St Petersburg, ex-Leningrad. The problem is the archieves of the Central Committee of the Communist Party which might well be in Kreml, are closed from foreigners, but if one is interested in tactical and operational matters, the answers can be found at the army and navy archives.

Juha

American Military historian David Glantz is one of many who's been to the archives and since has been literally rewriting the war on the Eastern Front.

 

[Jenisch]

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