How would the Allies have dealt with large numbers of ME 262s?

[GregP]

Hi Jenisch,

I THINK the Soviet Union could have won the war alone, but my comments were meant more to say the later Soviet government was pretty good at "revisionist" history ... nothing more. The Soviet Union was MUCH more populous than Germany and they had no lack of courage.

Without the Western Allies, I'm not altogether certain they could have moved the aircrarft factories beyond the Urals to produce the Yaks, MiGs. and Lavochkins that actually won the air war on that front. Maybe ... maybe not. It might depend entirely on the weather, which is nothing if not fickle. If they had lost the air war, then the ground war would have been beset by German aerial attackers that might have carried the day. I can't say for sure.

It is a BIG "what if" if I ever saw one, for sure.

 

[fastmongrel]

Hi Jenisch,

The Soviet Union was MUCH more populous than Germany and they had no lack of courage.

I dont think the population difference was as great as some imagine. Population of Soviet Union in 1940 approx 180 million. Population of Germany and its Eastern Allies in 1940 approx 105 million. When you take out the large swathes of western SU that were under Axis control Belarus, Baltic region and the Ukraine basically thats a population of about 40 to 50 million out of Soviet control by 1941. The Soviet Union still has a bigger population but not the 2 or 3 to 1 that some Nazi nuts will have us believe.

 

[Juha]

Hello Greg

Hi Jenisch,

I THINK the Soviet Union could have won the war alone, but my comments were meant more to say the later Soviet government was pretty good at "revisionist" history .

I agree that Soviet history literature was fairly nationalistic and some books were wrote only for to belittle Western Allies contributions to the victory of WWII, upto laughable dimensions. But after late 80s Russian historians have published very good and balanced books on WWII but of course also some very nationalistic ones.

The Soviet Union was MUCH more populous than Germany and they had no lack of courage.

fastmongrel answered already to this, but of course Germany had to keep a part of its forces in the West and in the Med, a clearly bigger proportion than that SU had to keep of its forces in the East and in the South.

Without the Western Allies, I'm not altogether certain they could have moved the aircrarft factories beyond the Urals to produce the Yaks, MiGs. and Lavochkins that actually won the air war on that front. Maybe ... maybe not. ..

Western aid had nothing to do with the Soviet ability to move their factories to East, that happened before the western aid had practically any effect, during Summer and Autumn 41. Western helped greatly during the difficult period of 42-43 and even after that had big impact because its impact to e.g. Red Army mobility (trucks, jeeps, lokomotives, radios and POL), its AA protection (M-17s and radars). And of course it enforced the numerical superiority of Rd Army in a/c and tanks. Russian complated that many of the L-L equipments were 2nd rated and not match for German equipment and IMHO they were right in cases of e.g. Hurricane, P-40 and O-52 and M-3 tanks but were very happy with P-39s, A-20s and B-25s. And fairly happy with M4 and Valentine tanks. . Also the raw materials sent by Allies helped Soviet own production.

Juha

 

[Erich]

Greg

actually no that is not what I am saying. due to the fact that not all 262 war diaries exist or were destroyed/buried the final talley or official tallies will not be known so we have to check surviving pilots flugbuchs even if the idea is concrete that the pilot even flew on such and such a date. sadly they are so simple - a time, and roughly a place of engagement not necessarily where an Allied/Soviet A/C hit ground. think this reply makes more sense...... ?

 

[swampyankee]

Actually finding out what happened in a war is difficult: eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable, with their testimony getting much less reliable with time, as it's influenced by what other people say and by ones personal biases (my father would argue that the Beirut barracks bombing, which happened in 1983, occurred during the Carter presidency), memoirs are even less reliable (largely, memoirs and autobiographies may be more accurately shelved as fiction), records are incomplete, either because they were never complete in the first place, were destroyed (including redactions), or just plain lost. As an example, witness the recent revision in US Civil War deaths, which, after about 150 years, were revised upwards by about 20%.

For WW2, it's rather obvious that Allied records are going to be more complete. London and Washington were much less chaotic places in 1945 than Berlin.

 

[davebender]

I disagree. This business of moving Soviet factories east is largely a wartime propaganda myth. Let's look at major Soviet tank factories.

CHAPTER XII: Tanks
Kirov Works. Leningrad.
.....Pulitov munitions plant which was modernized and expanded during 1930s.
Evacuated in name only. Original plant largely remained in Leningrad. Like other industry in that city production was shut down when Germany blockaded seaport and rail lines.

Stalingrad tank plant. 1931.
Built in USA and shipped to Soviet Union in pre-fabricated sections.
Order for evacuation given too late. Consequently the surrounded factory continued to build tanks until they ran out of parts. Factory largely destroyed during ground combat during late 1942.

Kharkov tank plant. 1932.
Built largely on site using American engineers and imported machinery.
Order for evacuation given in time to remove production jigs. Most of the factory including heavy materials handling equipment remained in Kharkov. German Army put this facility to good use. It became their major Ost Front tank repair facility run by Daimler-Benz engineers.

Chelyabinsk tank plant. 1933.
Construction begun without foreign assistance resulting in a fiasco. Caterpillar Company hired to take over construction using American engineers and equipment. Only pre-war tank factory in Urals so evacuation was not required.

Kharkov was the only tank plant moved east and that only involved production jigs. Soviets had to build a new factory complex from scratch and they used same methods as during 1930s. Without American engineers and American equipment there would have been no Tankograd. Newly constructed factories were given same names as pre-war plants in Leningrad, Kharkov and Stalingrad for propaganda purposes.

 

[tyrodtom]

What does who built the plant originally have to do with moving the plants 8-9-10 years later ??

 

[Juha]

Hello Dave
if you read the messages more carefully you might notice that the question was on a/c factories.

Juha

 

[stona]

Actually finding out what happened in a war is difficult: eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable, with their testimony getting much less reliable with time, as it's influenced by what other people say and by ones personal biases (my father would argue that the Beirut barracks bombing, which happened in 1983, occurred during the Carter presidency), memoirs are even less reliable (largely, memoirs and autobiographies may be more accurately shelved as fiction), records are incomplete, either because they were never complete in the first place, were destroyed (including redactions), or just plain lost. As an example, witness the recent revision in US Civil War deaths, which, after about 150 years, were revised upwards by about 20%.

For WW2, it's rather obvious that Allied records are going to be more complete. London and Washington were much less chaotic places in 1945 than Berlin.

Nonetheless there is a mountain of contemporary information available. There is a surprising amount of material which did survive in Germany as a perusal of the relevant bundesarchiv will reveal. A lot of German material was also copied or taken by the allies at the end of the war.
For the Luftwaffe a substantial number of quartermaster returns survive as well as personnel files etc. This is how authors like John Manhro can give us such a complete oversight of "Bodenplatte", or Don Caldwell so much on missions flown in defence of the Reich. It takes a monumental effort, for which I for one am grateful, but it can be done.
I picked those two simply because I have referred to them recently, there are many more.
Cheers
Steve

 

[fastmongrel]

fastmongrel answered already to this, but of course Germany had to keep a part of its forces in the West and in the Med, a clearly bigger proportion than that SU had to keep of its forces in the East and in the South.

I didnt include Italy in the Axis population figures as I am not well read enough to comment on the amount Italy was engaged on the Eastern front. Italies population in 1940 was approx 44 million.

The Soviets kept 19 rifle divisions, 1 cavalry division, 2 rifle brigades, 1 airborne brigade, 2 cavalry regiments, 1 rifle regiment, and 12 fortified regions organized into four rifle corps and five rifle armies in the far East and that didnt include the 80,000 strong Mongolian Army. I cant find out how many divs were stationed in the Siberian and Trans Baikal areas.

The reason the Soviets seemed to have so many more men was partly because they were so efficent at raising new armies. In the 2nd half of 1941, 182 rifle divisions, 43 militia rifle divisions, eight tank divisions, three mechanised divisions, 62 tank brigades and 11 naval infantry brigades were mobilised. A lot of these units werent of the 1st order of efficency but numbers counted particulary in front of Moscow. By 1944 even the Soviets were running out of men and apart from the battle of Berlin it is noticeable that Soviet generals werent throwing men into the meat grinder with such abandon as they had in the dark days of 41 and 42.

Just found this US intel report on the forces in the East Oct 41. The Kwantung versus the Siberian Army, October 21, 1941.

 

[GregP]

Hi Juha,

What I meant was that if Hitler had not started the war with Britain and had instead concentrated on the Soviet Union alone, then he could have put a lot more troops and aircraft on the Russian front. In other words, if the Nazis weren't fighting in both the east AND the west, I am not sure the Soviets could have stopped the Germans before they overran the aircraft factories and achieved victory.

I didn't mean we assisted the Soviet Union directly, only that we tied up a sizeable amount of German resources that otherwise might have made a big difference on the Soviet Front.

 

[swampyankee]

Hitler started a war with Britain and France a soon as he invaded Poland. Once he did that, he had powerful (albeit rather passive) enemies on the country's western borders and faced the same sort of blockade that severely hampered Germany in WW1 (you can't make explosives without nitrates, and you can't grow food without nitrates and labor. The German government gave priority to the army, so agricultural production dropped: not enough fertilizer, too few farm laborers. I read that 800,000 Germans died of malnutrition during ww1 as a result).

 

[parsifal]

davebender;1044781]I disagree. This business of moving Soviet factories east is largely a wartime propaganda myth. Let's look at major Soviet tank factories.

Kharkov was the only tank plant moved east and that only involved production jigs. Soviets had to build a new factory complex from scratch and they used same methods as during 1930s. Without American engineers and American equipment there would have been no Tankograd. Newly constructed factories were given same names as pre-war plants in Leningrad, Kharkov and Stalingrad for propaganda purposes

.

This is so typically you Dave. You take a scrap of truth that in reality is a minor element of the war, and blow it out of proportion and then claim that to be the gospel truth. The facts are, what you are saying has just a few bits and pieces that are true, but the majority is sheer bollocks.

Soviets did have to build the buildings, but the jigs, the dies, the workers (the skilled ones) were all moved as required. some factories didnt get away, but the majority did. To a greater or less extent, enough productive capacity escaped, to either establish new factories or expand existing capacity for the following industrial complexes
Facories, 183, 195, 232, "ural tank Factory", Chelyabinsk, Factory Numbers 100, 112, 174, "Kirov Production complex (5 plants), Chkalov, Omsk-Leningrad (Gorki - 2 plants), Nizhny - Novgorod (mostly Yekaterinburg), Sverdlovsk. Factories were also set up in three locations in the far east, including Chita and Kiovgrad (I think). ASll from jigs and dies saved in the German invasion

T-34 production is the one I know best, so lets have a look at that.

The T-34 Medium Tank was built at seven different factories during the Second World War, starting with Factory 183 at Kharkov and the Stalingrad Tractor Factory, both of which would fall to the Germans during the war.

On 5 June 1940 the Central Committee passed a resultion setting the production targets for 1940. Factory 183 was to produce 600 tanks in 1940, and the STZ another 100. In fact only 183 T-34s were completed during the year, all of them at Kharkov.

After the German invasion it became clear that Kharkov was in danger, and so Factory No.183 was evacuated to the east, and Factory No.112 was ordered to begin production. This left the STZ as the most important producer of the T-34 at the end of 1941.

1942 saw the new Factory No.183 begin large scale production, but this was countered by the German threat to Stalingrad. Three more factories were ordered to begin production during 1942, and although none of them reached the same scale of production as Factory No.183, they did produce 12,000 tanks.

Different sources give different figures for the production of the T-34, but the margins of error are all comparatively small. For consistency we will use the figures given in Michulec, T-34 Mythical Weapon. According to his figures a total of 35,595 T-34-76s were produced from new between 1940 and 1944. The relocated Kharkov plant at Nizhniy Tagil was responsible for a third of the total production, building 15,014 T-34-76s and as many T-34-85s.

The urgency of production in the Soviet Union in the second half of 1941 meant that despite all of the disruption caused by the German invasion 2,104 T-34s were completed. In the same period German complacency meant that only 1,388 Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs were built!

First Factory No.183 - Charkovskiy Traktornyj Zawod (ChTZ), Kharkov

Production of the T-34 began at Factory No.183 at Kharkov, where the tank had been designed. On 5 June 1940 the Central Committee passed a resolution ordering the Kharkov plant to produce 600 tanks in 1940, with another 100 to be produced at Stalingrad. In fact only 183 T-34s were completed during 1940, all of them at Factory No.183. Production stepped up in the first half of 1940, when 553 tanks were produced at Kharkov, and reached a peak in the second half of the year, when despite the rapid approach of the Germans another 939 T-34s were completed. A total of 1,675 T-34s were produced at Kharkov.

By September 1941 it was clear that there was a real danger that Kkarkov would fall to the Germans. On 13 September 1941 the factory was ordered to evacuate to Nizhniy Tagil, east of the Urals. The first of 43 trains left on 17 September, the last on 19 October. Although much of the factory equipment reached the new site, only 10% of the work force and 20% of the engineers followed the machinery.

Production Summary
T-34-76: 1,675

Second Factory No.183 - Uralskiy Tankovyj Zawod No.183 (UTZ), Nizhniy Tagil

The staff and machinery from Factory No.183 reached Nizhniy Tagil in the middle of winter. The facilities remained primitive for some time – at first parts of the factory were unroofed, despite the low winter temperatures (as low at -40 degrees C at some times). Most of the original workforce had been lost, and much of the burden of production fell on children and women. There was barely enough food and virtually no medical care.

Despite these terrible circumstances production at Nizhniy Tagil began in December 1941, when 25 T-34s were completed. Hardly surprisingly the quality of these tanks was not high, but as the factory became better established many of the problems were ironed out.

Production Summary
T-34-76: 15,014
T-34-85: 13,938
Total: 28,952

STZ Factory – Stalingradzkiy Traktornyj Zawod

The Stalingrad Tractor Factory was introduced into the T-34 production programme in 1940, although the first tanks did not appear until the start of 1941. A massive effort was needed to create a viable tank industry at Stalingrad. The city was surrounded by an un-industrialised hinterland, and so every industry needed for the production of the T-34 had to be concentrated in the city. The tanks were built at the STZ, armour plates were made at the Krasniy Oktyabr steel mill, and chassis were produced at either the STZ or the Stalingrad Ship Yard (Factory No.264).

This effort paid off after the German invasion. In the autumn of 1941 the Kharkov factory had to be evacuated to the east, leaving the STZ as the only major producer of the T-34. Of the 1,250 tanks produced in Stalingrad during 1941, 1,000 were built after the German invasion.

Tanks produced at Stalingrad had a number of identifying features. The front glacis plate and rear armour were interleaved with the side plates, a later used at Factory No.112. The front part of the gun tube recuperator cover was made from a single straight plate, producing a chisel-like profile. The STZ had the worst supply of rubber during 1942, and so was more likely to produce tanks equipped with nothing but steel wheels. STZ tanks also had two observation periscopes on the roof – one for the loader and one for the commander.

By mid-1942 it was becoming clear that Stalingrad too was about to be threatened by the Germans. The last tanks are said to have left the factory unpainted and gone straight to the front line in September 1942, before production was stopped by the German advance.

Production Summary
T-34-76: 3,770
Total: 3,770

No.112 Factory – Krasnoye Sormovo, Gorky

The third factory to begin production of the T-34 was the Krasnoye Sormovo Factory No.122 at Gorky. This would become the second most important producer of the T-34, eventually building over 12,000 tanks, equally split between the T-34-75 and T-34-86. The factory was ordered to begin production of the T-34 on 1 July 1941, in the immediate aftermath of the German invasion, and the first tanks were delivered in October. A shortage of diesel engines meant that the first "Sormovo" tanks had to use a M-17F petrol engine, and only 5 of the 161 tanks produced at Gorky in 1941 used the V-2 diesel.

Factory No.112 copied the STZ in using a simplified front glacis plate, with the armour interlocking with the side armour. A combination of the modifications introduced at Stalingrad and Gorky and the general changes to the production of the T-34 meant that the time taken to produce the components for one tank hull was reduced from 200 hours before the war to only 36 hours at Gorky in December 1941, and the time to assemble them into a complete hull went down from nine to two days.

Production Summary
T-34-76: 6,396
T-34-85: 6,208
Total: 12,604

No.174 Factory (Voroshilov Plant), Omsk

The No.174 Factory at Omsk was one of the three plants orders to begin production of the T-34 when the Germans began to threaten Stalingrad, and was the only one of the three to continue producing the T-34 to the end of the war. By the end of the war No.174 Factory had produced 5,867 T-34s, equally split between the 76mm and 85mm armed versions.

Production Summary
T-34-76: 2,927
T-34-85: 2,940
Total: 5,867

CzKZ – Czelyabinskiy Traktorniy Zavod (Czelyabinsk Tractor Factory) then Czelyabinskiy Kirovskiy Zawod

Czelyabinskiy became famous as "Tankograd", but the city wasn't a major producer of the T-34. Tank production at Czelyabinskiy began after the Kirov (Heavy) Tank Factory was relocated from Leningrad in June 1941, but T-34 production did not begin until the summer of 1942. Like the Omsk plant T-34 production began at CzKZ as the Germans began to threaten production at Stalingrad. Tankograd had been producing T-34 components since the end of 1941, so it did not take long for production to begin – the first tank was completed on 22 August 1942, only 32 days after the order to start building complete tanks, and 30 tanks were built that month. Production ended in March 1944 after 5,094 T-34-76s had been produced.

Production Summary
T-34-76: 5,094
Total: 5,094

 

[parsifal]

Part II of II


UTZM – Uralskiy Zavod Tyazhelogo Mashinostroyenya im. Ordzhonikidze or Uralmash (Ordzhonikidze Ural Heavy Machinery Factory)

In numerical terms the least important of the T-34 factories was UTZM, or Uralmash, where only 719 complete tanks were produced during 1942-43. Production of complete tanks at Uralmash began in the summer of 1942, as the threat grew to the factory at Stalingrad, and ended in the autumn of 1943. After that the factory produced a large number of assault guns based on the T-34 chassis. This did not end the involvement of the Uralmash factory in T-34 production. They had developed the stamped hexagonal turret in October 1942, after having problems with the cast version, and between then and March 1944 produced 2,670 of these turrets.

Uralmash had been involved in the T-34 programme since the autumn of 1941, when production of T-34 hulls had begun. Turrets soon followed, and in April 1942 the factory began to produce complete hulls and turrets, which were then sent on to Factory No.183 to be turned into complete tanks. Finally on 28 July 1942 the factory was ordered to begin assembling complete T-34s, and the first one came off the production line on 15 September 1942.

Production Summary
T-34-76: 719
Total: 719

 

[Juha]

Hi Juha,

What I meant was that if Hitler had not started the war with Britain and had instead concentrated on the Soviet Union alone, then he could have put a lot more troops and aircraft on the Russian front. In other words, if the Nazis weren't fighting in both the east AND the west, I am not sure the Soviets could have stopped the Germans before they overran the aircraft factories and achieved victory.

I didn't mean we assisted the Soviet Union directly, only that we tied up a sizeable amount of German resources that otherwise might have made a big difference on the Soviet Front.

I agree with that, only want to add that MTO was very important airwise, significant portion of LW losses, especially fighter losses, happened there, especially between Oct 42 and Sept 43.

Juha

 

[parsifal]

The Soviet Economy and the Red Army, 1930-1945 By Walter Scott Dunn

Go to page 32 and read on for a detailed description of Soviet plans and activities in the relocation of their industries....how it worked and how it didnt work

Ive read this book, as a library loan, and the following link gives some important details on this issue. it certainbly was not good old American know how that got the Soviet industrial potential moved....

The Soviet Economy and the Red Army, 1930-1945 - Walter Scott Dunn - Google Books

 

[Jenisch]

American aid to Soviet Union, or unknown lend-lease

Speaking of lend lease and aid provided in accord with this program, Tuyll noted that the Soviet Union would have survived without it but the victory would not have been so complete.

"In the first 1.5 years the Soviet Union was fighting for survival and would have won without lend lease, but further victories and movement to Europe would be questionable," he reported.

 

[Erich]

see another thread with a page totally OT......c'mon guysr

 

[bada]

see another thread with a page totally OT......c'mon guysr

indeed master. (would like to know more about your forthcoming book, title, time of release, etc. thank you)

They would have turned belly up and bailed out before getting in weapon range. Or they would have lurked in the clouds and dove in behind them and got them on their landing run. Or we would have had the P-80 and F-86 a lot sooner.

Yes of course, LW pilots were sooo scary of everything flying with a star on the wings...

and by the way: no captured german tech, no german wind-tunnels transferred to USA, no F-86, but just the FJ-1. Say thank you to willy.

 

[fastmongrel]

and by the way: no captured german tech, no german wind-tunnels transferred to USA, no F-86, but just the FJ-1. Say thank you to willy.

Yeah those dumb yankees would never be able to work it out for themselves