How would the Allies have dealt with large numbers of ME 262s?

[awack]

Some one had stated the fact that the me 262 could out climb the p51, then some one said that it would also depend on the fuel load, well yes of course, this is true for many air craft types...actual german test of the me 262 showed a clime rate of about 3800 fpm, at 7000kg, that's 15.432 pounds for the me 262 tested, some one correct me if im wrong but that means that the me 262 is carrying its maximum fuel load of around 4500 pounds...lets compare that to the spitfire xiv which had a climb rate of around 4700 fpm with a fuel load of 950 pounds of fuel, so lets say each each aircraft meets each other in the air at half fuel load, where is the spitfire has gone through hundreds of pounds of fuel the me 262 has gone through thousands of pounds of fuel, this should have a dramatic effect on climb performance. Here are a few combat reports (I don't put a lot of faith in combat reports but) on one or two occasions US pilots one of which was p47 pilot said that chasing an me 262 in a zoom climb that the me 262 could actually accelerate while vertical, obviously it just seemed that way, a 262 following a recon spitfire from below stated that the spitfire pilot after spotting him opened his(by viewing smoke from the spitfire I think) pulled the spit into a climb but the me 262 had no problem out climbing him, spitfire 9 pilots jumping a me 262 while landing said that the german pilot opened out climb him, the key to this is the spitfire pilot stated that the me 262 was able to gain altitude on him not just a faster climb, of course the 262 was coming in to land and most likely low on fuel.

There were several US test pilots who gave the -262 high marks in many performance areas but I don't think anyone ever said the 262 was "over all" superior to the P-80

here is is some of the stuff I can find on that

The claims that, in certain respects, the Me 262 was found to be superior to its American counterparts are correct. These claims did cause consternation in the Air Force. Brig. Gen. L. P. Whitten wrote on Oct. 17, 1946:

"1. The results of the ME-262 - P80A comparative speed and climb tests as outlined in Air Materiel Command Flight Test Report, Serial No. TSFTE-2008, are viewed with serious concern by this headquarters. ..."

Watson himself said in a documentary that the me 262 was the best, most combat worthy and that you could do any thing in it.

I personally think they were about equal fighters myself but that the me 262 was the superior jet, what I mean by that is that the me 262 was superior in speed, acceleration, dive and same in climb and found to hold its speed better in turns, the p80 of course had boosted ailerons and lighter wing loading, pilots also found the view to be better as well as the canopy being quieter in flight oh it also had dive brakes.

The early jets are where my interest mostly are with the me 262 being by far my favorite but I also love the Meteor, having said that, I believe the allies have easily delt with larger numbers of jets to a point of course, using the same tacticts they were already using, like having their fighters staggered in altitude 2000 ft 4000 ft 8000 ft and so on, attack the jets while climbing, forming up, attacking, approaching the air field and landing.

 

[drgondog]

People keep using the argument of bouncing the jets on their take off and landing. However, this would not happen in this 1944 scenario.

Why?

The effective patrolling over German jet bases started around February 1945. By that time, the Allies were already invading Germany itself. This had two major results, which would be absent in this 1944 scenario.

Kris - the 8th AF was shooting up airfields in the Berlin, Leipzig, Munich area in April 1944. While patrolling doesn't express the tactics, April 5th 1944 demonstrates what a co-ordinated and planned Fighter Sweep could do. The 4th hit in the Berlin area and the 355th hit Munich area with devastating effect, destroying more than 130 fighters on the ground in a snowstorm. The Me 262 would have been just as vulnerable.

 

[OldSkeptic]

This assumes that the 262's engines were reliable. From what I have read they were good for little more than perhaps 2-3 short sorties and extremely sensitive to pilot inputs (too much throttle to fast burned them up). By the time the 262 appeared I think it was too late. And, being somewhat patriotic, my gut response is to wink and say, "We'd of shot them down to".

Tom P.

I agree and have brought this up. Reliable, with better performance, axial flow jet engines were years away and that was the fundamental limitation of the 262, whatever Hitler did.
The research, design, engineering, materials and production issues were immense. Read Hookers account of trying to get the first RR axial flow engine up and running as an example, while he and his team had pulled off the 5,000lb Nene in a few months.

The advantages of the centrifugal flow engine, at that time, were immense.
A far simpler design, levered off the design and production expertise developed for superchargers.
You look at the performance of British centrifugal flow engines in late 44 vs German axial flow ones, totally superior in every measure of performance.
It took years more before axial flow ones got to the stage of the centrifugal ones.
Even as late as the Korean war Mig-15 vs F-86 time, there was sod all difference in their engines' performance between the Russian Nene centrifugal copy and the GE axial flow.

So it was a strategic mistake for the German engineers to go down that route, because it added years to the development and production time.

As for the 262 airframe, it was a superb design, significantly superior to the Meteor (though not the almost forgotten Vampire, at least as a pure fighter). As such it had much better performance with less power.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Even as late as the Korean war Mig-15 vs F-86 time, there was sod all difference in their engines' performance between the Russian Nene centrifugal copy and the GE axial flow.

Not really...

Both were putting out about 6000 pounds. The J-47 could put out 6500 lbs with water injection, the VK-1, although a very simple and trouble free engine never matured any further than what was seen in the MiG-15 bis (unless you want to include the AB on the MiG-17)

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Good point. But you are missing another one: stopping the US bomber offensive means: more German military production and an intact transport network towards Normandy. That might have changed the outcome of the invasion!

Kris

I doubt the invasion would have been staged absent air superiority. AFAIK, Ike considered it a huge risk even with it firmly established. But I also consider a superior interceptor denying allied access to German airspace to be a very different battle than establishing air superiority over a Normandy beachhead. I'd be surprised if the 262 could be used in an offensive fighter role with its short legs.

 

[CobberKane]

Some one had stated the fact that the me 262 could out climb the p51, then some one said that it would also depend on the fuel load, well yes of course, this is true for many air craft types...actual german test of the me 262 showed a clime rate of about 3800 fpm, at 7000kg, that's 15.432 pounds for the me 262 tested, some one correct me if im wrong but that means that the me 262 is carrying its maximum fuel load of around 4500 pounds...lets compare that to the spitfire xiv which had a climb rate of around 4700 fpm with a fuel load of 950 pounds of fuel, so lets say each each aircraft meets each other in the air at half fuel load, where is the spitfire has gone through hundreds of pounds of fuel the me 262 has gone through thousands of pounds of fuel, this should have a dramatic effect on climb performance. Here are a few combat reports (I don't put a lot of faith in combat reports but) on one or two occasions US pilots one of which was p47 pilot said that chasing an me 262 in a zoom climb that the me 262 could actually accelerate while vertical, obviously it just seemed that way, a 262 following a recon spitfire from below stated that the spitfire pilot after spotting him opened his(by viewing smoke from the spitfire I think) pulled the spit into a climb but the me 262 had no problem out climbing him, spitfire 9 pilots jumping a me 262 while landing said that the german pilot opened out climb him, the key to this is the spitfire pilot stated that the me 262 was able to gain altitude on him not just a faster climb, of course the 262 was coming in to land and most likely low on fuel.

Bear in mind here that while the 262s vertical velocity might not have been as great as the P-51s (by these figures, anyway) it's horizontal velocity at maximum ROC was certainly much more. This is important, because it can mostly negate any advantage the P-51 might get from climbing faster. Post war tests of the Spit XIV vs the Vampire found that the Spit outclimbed the Vamp by about 5000fpm to the jet's 4000fpm (IIRC). However, the pilots noted that in practise the disparity in speed between the two meant that the Spit could not use this advantage in any meaningful way.
Incidentally, the Vampire out-turned the Spitfire easily!

 

[Civettone]

Kris - the 8th AF was shooting up airfields in the Berlin, Leipzig, Munich area in April 1944. While patrolling doesn't express the tactics, April 5th 1944 demonstrates what a co-ordinated and planned Fighter Sweep could do. The 4th hit in the Berlin area and the 355th hit Munich area with devastating effect, destroying more than 130 fighters on the ground in a snowstorm. The Me 262 would have been just as vulnerable.

Yes, you are absolutely right. The Germans did not see that coming. They responded by increasing the Flak on its air fields, but this probably took some time.
Later in the war, some air fields were true Flak traps. For instance, the British stopped circling the Me 262 bases because of the losses they suffered.

I doubt the invasion would have been staged absent air superiority. AFAIK, Ike considered it a huge risk even with it firmly established. But I also consider a superior interceptor denying allied access to German airspace to be a very different battle than establishing air superiority over a Normandy beachhead. I'd be surprised if the 262 could be used in an offensive fighter role with its short legs.

I agree. But I also don't see any contradiction with what I am saying.
However, the Allies would still have air superiority even if the Me 262 ruled the skies over Germany. They were closer to Normandy than most German fighters.
As said in the previous page, this is not the same air supremacy, which means that you have 100% control over the skies, as they actually IRL over Normandy.

Bear in mind here that while the 262s vertical velocity might not have been as great as the P-51s (by these figures, anyway) it's horizontal velocity at maximum ROC was certainly much more. This is important, because it can mostly negate any advantage the P-51 might get from climbing faster. Post war tests of the Spit XIV vs the Vampire found that the Spit outclimbed the Vamp by about 5000fpm to the jet's 4000fpm (IIRC). However, the pilots noted that in practise the disparity in speed between the two meant that the Spit could not use this advantage in any meaningful way.
Incidentally, the Vampire out-turned the Spitfire easily!

That is a very good point. Even when climbing at the same rate, the Me 262 would outpace its opponent !

Kris

 

[Jenisch]

If the Germans had a considerable number of 262s, what about put some bombs and sent them to hit and run attacks in the Allied airbases in England?

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Interesting student's take on the situation in '44:

WW2 Luftwaffe Air Superiority

"After reorganization in 1944 by Dorsch of the Ministry of Armament and War Economy, the production shot to new highs. In 1944 the production of fighter aircraft, almost 11 thousand not including the 1000 jet aircraft, was significantly more than all of the previous 5 years of wartime production. From 1943 to 1944, the production of all types almost doubled. (Bekker Appendix 13) Even with the massive numbers of aircraft built, Germany had lost the production race against the almost unlimited resources and manpower of the Allies especially the United States. In 1944 America had produced almost 100 thousand aircraft (Angelucci p. 361). Thus Knoke was correct in assessing the loss ratio of the Luftwaffe. ``The loss of five aircraft... means as much as a loss of fifty of the enemy'' (Knoke p. 167).

 

[Jenisch]

And let's not forget the Soviets, which produced 40,000 planes in 1944.

 

[stona]

If the Germans had a considerable number of 262s, what about put some bombs and sent them to hit and run attacks in the Allied airbases in England?

Coming back to the beginning of the thread, apologists like Galland would argue that this was a waste of resources. Such raids could be carried out by conventional aircraft. Historically (1940) the most successful raids were carried out by the Bf 110s of Erprobungsgruppe 210.

Dropping bombs from Me 262s was another thing that they were not entirely ready for. Changes in trim to compensate for CoG changes had to be done rapidly and there are several accounts of aircraft crashing immediately after releasing bombs.
Bomb racks were not interchangeable but positioned and fitted to individual aircraft, almost invariably marked with that aircraft's werknummer. Another sign of the premature rush into service.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

Thats exactly what Mr Stona is doing in his many of his last posts. Try to devalue the Me 262 and imlyies that is at best equal to P51D ( and naturally inferior to 51H )
He calls the 262 not manouverable, a"brick" when all test pilots report a fully aerobatic aircraft with excellent high speed agility
He calls "fantacies" the 400+++ german jet claims but accepts without question the claims of the american pilots.
He accepts stories of P51s out diving Me 262s, Spitfires XIVs catching on level flight (!!!) 262s

1 The Me 262 was not an agile fighter. Being fully aerobatic and agile are not the same thing. Interestingly on acceptance flights no aerobatics apart from slow rolls were performed. The aircraft had to reach a minimum speed without wrinkling of skins or bits flying off and that was about it.

2 No I don't. Long experience of the Luftwaffe would cause me to be cautious of counting claims as kills, particularly after the autumn of 1944 when the claims verification system broke down. Some pilots provably and fraudulently over claimed and all pilots over claimed, even if in good faith. This, particularly the latter, was not unique to the Luftwaffe and was well known at the time. It was the bane of every debriefing intelligence officer's life.

I do not accept the claims of allied pilots, you presumably either didn't read or misunderstood my post. In fact I have gone to great lengths to match claims with German losses. I said in another post that I still have about 30 German losses that I can't tie to an allied claim. Those aircraft were still lost in or following air combat. The losses, as reported in German records actually outnumber the claims that I have found. This is due to a lack of information available to me, particularly from USAAF records. I would also say that due to inaccurately or badly written werknummern in German records and a propensity for getting dates wrong, some claims are difficult to exactly interpret. Nonetheless a loss was reported and can often be tentatively linked to a claim.

3 Those are mostly from encounter reports or the memoirs of the pilots (both sides) involved. Any allied fighter could easily catch an Me 262 if it wasn't being flown fast, even in level flight. In some circumstances the allied fighters out accelerated the Me 262 in just about all flight regimes. This is not a comment on the Me 262 but the way it was flown.

It is naïve in the extreme to apply the sort of performance achieved by test pilots to the way that service pilots flew the Me 262. Time and again they were caught by piston engine fighters or shot down by bombers having thrown away the one significant advantage their aircraft had, its speed.

I don't think that the Me 262 was a bad aeroplane. It was a significant step into the future. It was however introduced into service in July 1944 well before it was ready. No western allied air force would have introduced an aircraft with such an appalling serviceability record. No air force, except in desperation, would introduce an aircraft with such a lethal safety record. I've seen many aircraft described as death traps but the Me 262, as it entered service in 1944, killed far more of its pilots than the allies did.

Cheers

Steve

 

[bada]

1 The Me 262 was not an agile fighter. Being fully aerobatic and agile are not the same thing. Interestingly on acceptance flights no aerobatics apart from slow rolls were performed. The aircraft had to reach a minimum speed without wrinkling of skins or bits flying off and that was about it.

2 No I don't. Long experience of the Luftwaffe would cause me to be cautious of counting claims as kills, particularly after the autumn of 1944 when the claims verification system broke down. Some pilots provably and fraudulently over claimed and all pilots over claimed, even if in good faith. This, particularly the latter, was not unique to the Luftwaffe and was well known at the time. It was the bane of every debriefing intelligence officer's life.

I do not accept the claims of allied pilots, you presumably either didn't read or misunderstood my post. In fact I have gone to great lengths to match claims with German losses. I said in another post that I still have about 30 German losses that I can't tie to an allied claim. Those aircraft were still lost in or following air combat. The losses, as reported in German records actually outnumber the claims that I have found. This is due to a lack of information available to me, particularly from USAAF records. I would also say that due to inaccurately or badly written werknummern in German records and a propensity for getting dates wrong, some claims are difficult to exactly interpret. Nonetheless a loss was reported and can often be tentatively linked to a claim.

3 Those are mostly from encounter reports or the memoirs of the pilots (both sides) involved. Any allied fighter could easily catch an Me 262 if it wasn't being flown fast, even in level flight. In some circumstances the allied fighters out accelerated the Me 262 in just about all flight regimes. This is not a comment on the Me 262 but the way it was flown.

It is naïve in the extreme to apply the sort of performance achieved by test pilots to the way that service pilots flew the Me 262. Time and again they were caught by piston engine fighters or shot down by bombers having thrown away the one significant advantage their aircraft had, its speed.

I don't think that the Me 262 was a bad aeroplane. It was a significant step into the future. It was however introduced into service in July 1944 well before it was ready. No western allied air force would have introduced an aircraft with such an appalling serviceability record. No air force, except in desperation, would introduce an aircraft with such a lethal safety record. I've seen many aircraft described as death traps but the Me 262, as it entered service in 1944, killed far more of its pilots than the allies did.

Cheers

Steve

Stona,
look at the loss-page you posted, what i see there are A2's marks, in other words: bombers (jabo's) not fighters (A-1), those were mostly flown by Bomber's pilots, guys that flew on He111-ju88 and other "slow" aircrafts for years...and most of them flew the schwalbe simply the wrong way , maybe due to their bomber-reflexes.
It would be nice to see the total stats of the 262's losses by squadron, by type(mark) and especially by cause , for exemple: mechanical failure, direct ennemy action(air combat), flak, pilot error, straffed on takeoff/approach. Such stats gives more a decent view than just a list like you've posted.

If i take the same aproach as you did, than i could told you that most of the spitfire's pilots shouldn't have received their flight diploma or their instructor should have told them to RTFM...especially if i take the exemple of the spit MK12, which,statisticaly spoken, is the worst spit of them all

 

[cherry blossom]

Although not obviously relevant to the question of how the Allies would respond, it may be worth noting that large numbers of Me 262s could cause other problems for a Normandy invasion. Firstly, there won't be any great surprise as reconnaissance aircraft can watch the invasion force in harbour and as it assembles. Secondly, jets could be used (as I suspect Hitler intended) for skip bombing against the supply ships. I am not sure how much trouble that will cause or what losses the jets will suffer in such attacks. Bomb laden jets at low altitude can probably be caught by lucky piston engined fighters and the speed over the target will not make jets immune to flak although some of the guns may have problems following crossing targets.

 

[GrauGeist]

Just hecause the Me262 could carry bombs didn't mean it was a threat. For 10 days, Ar234 jet bombers attacked the bridge at Remagen with no spectacular success...

 

[stona]

Stona,

It would be nice to see the total stats of the 262's losses by squadron, by type(mark) and especially by cause , for exemple: mechanical failure, direct ennemy action(air combat), flak, pilot error, straffed on takeoff/approach. Such stats gives more a decent view than just a list like you've posted.

I have that information, but in raw form. It is still possible to get a good idea of the causes of losses scanning through it. It would take months to reduce it to simple tables. I don't have the time or inclination to start that project at the moment.
I can tell you this, of the Me 262s whose loss has a known cause the vast majority were non-combat related. I'd hazard a guess that engine and undercarriage failures would top the list of causes, followed by pilot error, airframe failure (large bits often tore off at high speeds) and unknown.
It is worth noting that they were not particularly well built. Those examined post war by the allies displayed signs of rushed production. Screw and rivet holes were not evenly spaced making the attached parts non-interchangeable for example. Both US and British reports comment on the copious amounts of filler used. Some systems were incompletely installed.

The thing was far more lethal to its pilots than the RAF and USAAF combined.

That is one page of early production werknummern. Unsurprisingly those -2as were lost by 2,3 and 5./ KG 51 with a couple from Kommando Schenk.

I was unaware that we were discriminating between different dash numbers of the Me 262. They are essentially the same aircraft with removable ETC racks.

Even the Luftwaffe got confused. As one example, courtesy of Dan O'Connell, W.Nr.110544 is listed as a -1a but its acceptance papers (which list all fitted equipment) state that it had two ETC racks making it a "Jabo". It also had special equipment, "Starthilfe" ( the mounting plates and wiring for RATO) which could be for either type and a BSK 16 gun camera more usually fitted to fighters.

Cheers

Steve

 

[nuuumannn]

In a nutshell, I was wondering what the Allies as a whole would have done if the 262 had appeared in the kind of numbers Galland had fantasised about, just as the USAAF was fielding numbers of P-51s on the other side. That is, before D-day, and without the use of bases in occupied Europe.

Assuming the Me 262 had appeared in larger numbers in 1944 than it did, then little would have changed from what actually happened - apart from higher losses of bombers attacking Germany. How high would the losses be and would it be enough to halt the bombing altogether? That depends on whose conducting the fantasy - essentially, how many Me 262s are we looking at and are the issues that affected them in real WW2 affecting them in fantasy WW2? Are the Allies able to respond with jet development in advance also? Erich's statement about clarification is a pertinent one.

In real WW2 the British became aware of the Me 262 five months before it became operational and feared exactly the scenario that we are discussing here even earlier based on reconnaissance photos showing scorch marks on airfields matching a twin engined jet and images of prototype Me 163s at Peenemunde - which the Allies had images of by mid 1943 - before they got one of a 262. A paper produced in July 1943 outlined these fears - that by early 1944 the Germans would have at least one jet/rocket fighter operational and that its performance would be beyond anything fielded by the Allies at that time. It was the first the Air Ministry produced on German jet/rocket fighter activity and it prompted an order for 120 Gloster Meteors and further research into high speed jet powered flight.

Within a year, after the Me 262 had entered service and crashed examples had been recovered and examined, the Air Staff, through the receipt of Enigma decrypts and other intel came to the conclusion that the threat of German Jets was overestimated and that not nearly as many as was initially thought would be in service and that their introduction would; "...not make any radical alteration to the effectiveness of the German Air Force." This was in late 1944.

The Americans were not so convinced by the RAF's increasingly blase attitude toward the German jets, Spaatz in particular since his bombers were their targets. He prioritised jet and rocket development installations as targets in September 1944, Helmut Walter's works at Keil and Junkers at Dessau were attacked in response. Augsburg had also been bombed in late February 1944.

In fantasy WW2 where Me 262s enter service much earlier than mid 1944, we can presume that the Allies would have found out about them sooner and could react accordingly - therefore much would be done to counter the threat up to that point, such as the increased progress on jet aircraft in Britain and the USA. We can also assume that the issues that affected the Me 262 in real time would also affect them in fantasy time, meaning the engine issues etc, so their effectiveness would only be immediate, resulting in losses of bombers, but with the introduction of greater numbers of escorts, bombing sorties against research facilities etc - the threat would eventually be met. The time period this would take place over and the countermeasures in place depend solely on whose conducting the fantasy.

Regardless of this, extra Me 262s would be in vain; the ultimate result would still be the end of the Third Reich - that would not change.

 

[stona]

I'd like to add that no one is sure how many Me 262s actually saw service. Even the most optimistic would probably argue around 300 of the roughly 1500 produced. Of those I know for sure that between 110 and 130 were shot down by allied fighters, bombers or AAA. There are many whose fate is unknown.That makes them far from invincible.

My point is and always has been that no matter how revolutionary a weapon the new jet was, it was far from the war winning wonder weapon that some are suggesting. Its capabilities and that of the men who flew it are being largely over estimated.

Cheers
Steve

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'd like to add that no one is sure how many Me 262s actually saw service. Even the most optimistic would probably argue around 300 of the roughly 1500 produced. Of those I know for sure that between 110 and 130 were shot down by allied fighters, bombers or AAA. There are many whose fate is unknown.That makes them far from invincible.

My point is and always has been that no matter how revolutionary a weapon the new jet was, it was far from the war winning wonder weapon that some are suggesting. Its capabilities and that of the men who flew it are being largely over estimated.

Cheers
Steve

Read "Arrow to the Future"

Amazon.com: Messerschmitt Me 262: Arrow to the Future (Schiffer Military/Aviation History) (9780887406652): Walter J. Boyne: Books

This is from Wiki, sources shown when you go the the page.

"About 1,400 Me 262s were produced, but a maximum of 200 were operational at the same time. They destroyed about 150 enemy planes, but the Allies destroyed about 100 Me 262s in the air.[51] While Germany was bombed intensively, production of the Me 262 was dispersed into low-profile production facilities, sometimes little more than clearings in the forests of Germany and occupied countries. Through the end of February to the end of March 1945, approximately 60 Me 262s were destroyed in attacks on Obertraubling and 30 at Leipheim;[62] the Neuberg jet plant itself was bombed on 19 March 1945.[63]"

 

[Balljoint]

In all these years, I have defended the Bf 109 as much as any other. But, I can tell you that the Bf 109G was definitely not able to deal with the P-51, at least not the G-6. When the G-10 and K-4 arrived, they were up to the challenge again. Of course, it mainly depends on the pilot, but that's a no brainer.
What do you mean by P-51 levering the vertical? The Me 262 had superior climb rate and maintained speed better during manoeuvre.

My point is that the Me-262s would be tasked with destroying bombers. Thus the escort fighters would locate above the bombers and take a crack at the attacking jets. There was some success doing this on an ad hoc basis. It's a tactic that could be refined. The situation wouldn't have reverted to the days of no escorts.

But my main point is that the LW's failure was a function of pilot skill and availability, not planes. The super weapons such as the V-1/2 were more a bother than a game changer in the big picture. Me-262s by the hundreds would have reshaped perhaps but not changed the outcome.