The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
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AS to penetration, some times even 200yds is barely enough to allow a bullet to "go to sleep".
I have never seen any penetration tables for either the short German cartridge or the short Russian but tend to doubt their ability at 200-600yds compared to the full power rifle rounds, not only due to the lower initial power but the short, stumpy bullets will loose power even faster than the full power rounds.
I do have penetration tables for some between the wars US rounds.
10 round Garand with a smaller calibre round? If only.....that actually did happen and was rejected.
StG 44 was on the way out if the war had continued replaced by the StG 45(M).
Explosive rounds was not a mass produced item.
Box magazines are not the miracle cure as an external box magazine can be trouble and the 8 round en bloc clip for the Garand was certainly fast enough and easy enough certainly over a stripper clip.
Explosive ammunition for rifles/ground machine guns is pretty much a needless expense and complication. AS are most things, ammunition is a compromise and HE rifle bullets require much more care in both manufacturing and handling than Ball, AP or even tracer. HE rifle bullets also really suck at penetration. Full power rifle ammo will go through 12-24 in of sand (depending on exact bullet and if sand is wet or dry), several feet of wood ( big change from pine to oak) 3-6 ins of masonry and other assorted obstacles. Little tiny bangs on the outside of such barriers can turn conclement into cover. British .303 may not have been the best at penetrating but with the nose of the bullet full of aluminium or some other filler it flopped sideways most of the time pretty quickly. A .303 bullet going sideways has pretty good stopping power
Up very close, the penetration of a rifle bullet tends to be extremely poor relative to backing off 30-50 yards so the bullet has a chance to "go to sleep" before hitting the obstacle.
Ok, thanks for the response, I understand what you were saying now. Stabilization is a pretty variable subject, as twist rate, barrel length, bullet shape, weight, composition, etc, all play a factor in that. I do agree that rifle rounds less than 50 yards can be pretty variable in the path they take in the target, but even that variability has it's own variations and set of factors.Regarding penetration, the optimal range for something like the .30-06 is about 20-30 yards. It is enough for the bullet to stabilize or "go to sleep" but not so far as to lose a lot of velocity. I forget where I saw the results of this kind of testing but it was for US military .30-06 rounds.
Box mags must be seen in the pros cons ratio and not a given. The Lee Enfield had a detachable box magazine and Lee patented the idea in 1879 but was never used as a detachable magazine and was a weak point in the rifle.
The Russians lost 80,000 rifles a month in ww1 so rifles must be disposable as well and giving all rifles scopes or solid gold bolts is not cost effective.
Of course how disposable a rifle or rifleman is will depend country to country.
Regarding penetration, the optimal range for something like the .30-06 is about 20-30 yards. It is enough for the bullet to stabilize or "go to sleep" but not so far as to lose a lot of velocity. I forget where I saw the results of this kind of testing but it was for US military .30-06 rounds.
- Ivan.
The Lee Enfield mags were made out of thin metal so could be dented.
The StG 45 would have replaced the StG44 had the war gone on.
This discussion is about ww2 and not post war. The M14 is many years away.
I have disagreed with all your comments so far as well.
Also, IMO you can use mid caliber rounds in an MG and have it still be reasonably effective out to 3 or 400 yards. In fact the RPDs our counter assault teams used while in Iraq and Afghanistan worked at least as well or better than the SAWs we ran later on, but both were pretty effective at that range. In fact as an LMG I feel it's more optimal than a 30 caliber weapon, which typically needs as you said a decent(heavy) mount.
DARPA and other agencies are working on mid-range caliber in the 6mm-ish class right now for a replacement for both the 556 SAWs and the 762 240s, some with telescoping tech ammunition, some not, but the common thread is a mid range caliber.
Just giving you what was in some old book/s by Johnson (yes, that Johnson) and Haven as I haven't seen the information anywhere else.Thanks Shortround6,
So these would be the numbers for .30 Cal M1 Ball or .30 Cal M72 Match at 2700 fps nominal.
I would imagine the .30 Cal M2 Ball at 2800 fps would do quite a bit worse.
It doesn't come up often when shooting at paper, but it always amazes me how much raw power there is in a full power rifle bullet.
I know this isn't your test, but you do realise that there are problems with trying to simulate long range penetration with a reduced load at short range:
Bullets' rotational velocity doesn't change all that much with distance, certainly not nearly as much as translational velocity.
With a reduced load, the rotational velocity would reduced as much as translational velocity which probably does not help penetration.
- Ivan.
For some reason you believe the P13/P14 was the high point of rifle design and it has all been downhill ever since.The box magazine on the Lee Enfield was considered a weak point which is why the P13/P14 didn't have one.
Wasn't the G43 loaded usually with stripper clips?
Most of the weapons you specified are autos which obviously need capacity.
Not saying box magazine is not good but they were not common in WW2 on rifles although obviously common on smgs.
Just giving you what was in some old book/s by Johnson (yes, that Johnson) and Haven as I haven't seen the information anywhere else.
I can also imagine the difficulty in hitting test targets at 1500yds
I've got several SMLE magazines, none perfectly straight. But they all function fine. And they're over 70 years old, like me.
Pretty thick, hard, steel. About the only place you could dent it and cause a malfunction would be in the 2 ribs down each side, and that would take something very sharp. Most of the magazine is inside the rifle, only about the lower two rounds are exposed outside the stock, the rest is spring.
I'd measure how thick the steel is, but my micrometer is in the garage, and it's snowing.
A magazine can be in service for many years and can be dropped, stolen, trod on or even simply worn out. The fact you have a pristine example in factory condition doesn't tell anything.