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Just to clarify for Michael (Parsifal) - the Lee-Enfield No.4, in its various versions, started to replace the WW1 Short, Magazine, Lee- Enfield (SMLE) rifle in 1941 in British and Commonwealth military service, although the SMLE still saw service in second-line units. The SMLE was virtually hand made, and tailored to the firere, with three different butt lengths available.
The No4 theoretically was available in 'short' and long' but length, but this seems rare!
In 1956, the British army finally took the decision to go 'semi-auto' and, after very lengthy trials of various weapons, including one, which, in much developed form, eventually became the current UK rifle, opted for the FAL design which, built under licence to British requirements, became the L1A1 'SLR' (Self Loading Rifle), and entered general service in 1958, remaining the 'front line' weapon until the mid 1980s, when the current 'SA80' L-85 'bullpup' rifle started to enter service, although the SLR remained for some time with second-line units.
I would have thought that NZ and Australian Forces would have had the No4 rifle (and/or the No.5 'Jungle Carbine') up to around 1958, when the SLR came into service, as most of the SMLEs were given, or sold, to former 'Empire' nations, in the Asian and African continents, or sold on the private market.
as most of the SMLEs were given, or sold, to former 'Empire' nations, in the Asian and African continents, or sold on the private market.
The Aussies never got the No4 as far as I know they had the smelly MkIII made at the Australian Lithgow Small Arms factory till they went to the SLR at the same time as the British Army.
Correct: The initial caliber was .276--but as the BAR, Springfield 1903, some M1917 Enfields and the 1919A-1 Browning machine guns were already in std. 30-06 caliber . John Garand was "persuaded" by the Army Ordnance Dept. to build his prototype in .30-Gov't-06 Caliber. The Garand is heavy, kicks like a constipated mule, and the 8 rd. enbloc clip and coupled with the reloading with the "M-1 thumb" hazard, not too hard to overcome on the firing range, but a possible problem in a combat situation (mud, sand, snow, rain)--If, as Garand had wanted, the M-1 had been produced with a lighter cartridge then the 30.06 and with a detachable Mag (10-20 rds?) instead of the clip it would have been more effective.
What if the US as adopted to Brit. .303? Would have made things a lot easier.
Individual rifles are of no concern so what you need is a rifle which can be built cheaply enough and quickly enough so you can equip your army in time of war based on what is possible. So will differ from country to country.
Getting back to the original question "IDEAL rifle" and not best substitute or best available.
6.5mm cartridge with a 120-125 grain bullet (8 grams) spitzer boat tail at 2600fps (788ms).
Weight about 4-4.5 kg
Pretty much a FN FAL
20 round magazines although a 30 might be able to fit (or be interchangeable with the squad LMG?)
Full auto depends on how controllable it is. With about 70% of the recoil of a 7.62 nato round it has a chance even if heavier recoil than the true intermediates.
There is nothing in the FN FAL that didn't exist in WW II except perhaps for the exact metallurgy which could be solved by making it just a bit heavier ( although with a bit small receiver it may be a wash?)
Front sight an interchangeable blade to allow for zeroing ( various heights and the ability to be moved side ways) protected by wings.
Rear sight mounted on the back end of the receiver with elevation steps of 200, 300, 400 and 500 yds or meters depending on country. One or two steps each side for wind correction nice but not essential.
Browning designed the 1911 in 1908- in 1911 the US Army Ordnance Board approved it, and Colt was the first manufacturer of this pistol, in .45ACP Automatic Colt Pistol-great weapon yet today.Oops, your right. Did not look closely enough. Have not had much to do with the US 45, automatically assumed it to be the Browning.
I think you mean: Boat tail spitzers- spritzers add "kick" to alcoholic drinks- or something like that. I like the Speer 168 grain Boat-Tail design bullets- spitzers to the tenth power--HansieHello Shortfound6, et al.
It really helps to read what has already been posted in a forum before posting something.
Why am I not surprised that most of what I was about to write was already covered by you several; years ago?
When thinking of a new rifle design, the question is how much of current knowledge and technology can be assumed to be available before or during WW2. Many materials that we use today were obviously not developed yet, but can we use the knowledge we have now that designers back then did not have? I think I will play a little loose with the rules here because no one has actually stated any yet.
We are in almost complete agreement about caliber:
I would choose a 6.5 mm with about a 140-150 grain bullet (A little heavier than your choice for better long range ballistics).
Ideally the cartridge case would be fairly short probably in the 45 mm to 50 mm range depending on what powder capacity needed to be to push a bullet to around 2600-2650 fps. Double base powders would offer more power in a smaller cartridge case as compared to the typical single base powders used in the military .30-06 of the time.
Basically this would be a ballistic twin of the 6.5 mm x 55 Swedish Mauser but in a more compact package and with a sharper case shoulder for good case volume.
There would be a second "standard" loading with a heavier bullet perhaps at a slightly lower velocity for longer ranged weapons such as a LMG but there would be no significant power level differences so that either cartridge could be used interchangeably in any of the weapons.
This is the same idea as the .30 M1 with a 170-something grain bullet, the M72 Match round with a 173 grain bullet and the .30 M2 round with a 152 grain bullet.
All would be boat tail spritzers.
The FAL is a cool design, but my preference would be something with a gas system closer to that of the SVD Dragunov and with a multiple lug rotating bolt. Ideally at least three locking lugs as on the Dragunov.
Front sight would be similar to the M1 Garand or M14 with adjustability for Windage.
Rear sight would probably be a clone of a late model M1 Garand which is pretty hard to beat or perhaps the micrometer style sight that is found on some No.4 Lee Enfield's but with provision for Windage adjustment.
More details on the gas system:
The White gas cutoff system as implemented on the M14 is an interesting idea but did not seem to work quite that well in practice.
It may actually self regulate, but seems to have a very limited range.
The manually regulated system of the FN FAL / SAFN or FN-49 is not bad but would require more work to set. I have personally run into more functioning issues with this system than with the M14 types. This feature was also partly responsible tor the failure of the FAL / T48 in US arctic tests.
Trigger would be similar to the FN-49 / M1 / M14. The FAL generally has a pretty horrible trigger. My own preference is also for a two stage trigger instead of single stage.
The Flash Suppressor / Muzzle Brake could be some kind of design that would reduce recoil and compensate for muzzle climb under full automatic fire.
Thoughts?
- Ivan.
Browning designed the 1911 in 1908- in 1911 the US Army Ordnance Board approved it, and Colt was the first manufacturer of this pistol, in .45ACP Automatic Colt Pistol-great weapon yet today.
Just wondering- is the 2. listing- Extractor location sometimes the cause of "stove-piping"?? I do not own a 1911-A-1 or any of its many "clones" available in today's market. I have a S&W M39 in 9mm-lightweight- and if you release the magazine, with a round in the chamber, there is an "interceptor" than dis-connects the firing linking- the magazine, whether empty of full, has to be firmly seated before you can fire the weapon. Why S&W designed this, I do not know. A hunting pal in CO. once told me the the 1911-A-1 has 4 distinct safety modes, and his theory was, as the US Army was still a cavalry based force in 1911- there was concern by the Army that a trooper could fire the weapon as he unholstered it, putting a bullet into his horse- I shudder to think of that scenario..Hello Hansie Bloeckmann,
M1911A1 is definitely one of my favourites. If you have worked on them you probably have found some of the really goofy issues with these guns. There are about two or three areas of these guns I believe are really poorly designed:
1. The two piece Feed Ramp. There needs to be an overlap between frame ramp and barrel ramp which means that the ramp angles need to be very steep or the case head would be unsupported.
2. The Extractor is located in such a manner that without modification, it pulls the spent case directly against the right side wall of the Ejection Port.
Also, the Ejection Port is a little on the small side for clearing a loaded round with some configurations of bullets.
The lowering and extending of the ejection port is one of the more common modifications.
The Ejector is also often replaced and does help with more reliable ejection.
3. The Slide Stop has very little overlap with the typical Magazine Follower but has no room to extend further because a Round Nose bullet may contact it. Sometimes with not so tightly spec'ed guns, the follower rides past the slide stop.
There are a few other little things such as issues replacing the front sight but those are not really inherent problems in the design.
....Spritzer bullets! I can't stop laughing.
Thanks!
- Ivan.
Just wondering- is the 2. listing- Extractor location sometimes the cause of "stove-piping"?? I do not own a 1911-A-1 or any of its many "clones" available in today's market. I have a S&W M39 in 9mm-lightweight- and if you release the magazine, with a round in the chamber, there is an "interceptor" than dis-connects the firing linking- the magazine, whether empty of full, has to be firmly seated before you can fire the weapon. Why S&W designed this, I do not know. A hunting pal in CO. once told me the the 1911-A-1 has 4 distinct safety modes, and his theory was, as the US Army was still a cavalry based force in 1911- there was concern by the Army that a trooper could fire the weapon as he unholstered it, putting a bullet into his horse- I shudder to think of that scenario..
You would have to do this country to country. Italy was certainly not in a position to make whizz bang new rifles.
Hello Shortfound6, et al.
It really helps to read what has already been posted in a forum before posting something.
Why am I not surprised that most of what I was about to write was already covered by you several; years ago?
When thinking of a new rifle design, the question is how much of current knowledge and technology can be assumed to be available before or during WW2. Many materials that we use today were obviously not developed yet, but can we use the knowledge we have now that designers back then did not have? I think I will play a little loose with the rules here because no one has actually stated any yet.
We are in almost complete agreement about caliber:
I would choose a 6.5 mm with about a 140-150 grain bullet (A little heavier than your choice for better long range ballistics).
Ideally the cartridge case would be fairly short probably in the 45 mm to 50 mm range depending on what powder capacity needed to be to push a bullet to around 2600-2650 fps. Double base powders would offer more power in a smaller cartridge case as compared to the typical single base powders used in the military .30-06 of the time.
Basically this would be a ballistic twin of the 6.5 mm x 55 Swedish Mauser but in a more compact package and with a sharper case shoulder for good case volume.
There would be a second "standard" loading with a heavier bullet perhaps at a slightly lower velocity for longer ranged weapons such as a LMG but there would be no significant power level differences so that either cartridge could be used interchangeably in any of the weapons.
This is the same idea as the .30 M1 with a 170-something grain bullet, the M72 Match round with a 173 grain bullet and the .30 M2 round with a 152 grain bullet.
All would be boat tail spritzers.
For use in full auto you need to reduce recoil somewhat, how much is subject to argument but since recoil is proportional to momentum (weight/mass X velocity) and not energy you have two choices, cut bullet weight or cut velocity (or both). Keeping 140-150 grain Spitzers (with or without boat tails) doesn't cut the recoil enough to give you a controllable weapon in full auto. Please remember that the US M2 Ball .30-06 used a 150 grain bullet and the Nato 7.62 used a 147-150 grain bullet. Nobody made a controllable full auto rifle in either cartridge. I don't know if cutting recoil by 20-25% is enough but it is a much better start than cutting velocity by only 10% or so.
In 6.5mm a 120 grain bullet will give (given the same shape) as good or better ballistics than a 150-168 grain .30 cal bullet. A 140 grain 6.5mm bullet acts like a 190-200 grain .30 cal.
You don't need the heavy 6.5mm bullets (which also require quicker twist rifling) unless you are shooting to distances beyond the normal employment ranges of a bipod mounted machine gun.
The US adopted the .30 M1 with a 170-something grain bullet for use in water cooled 1917 Brownings where it increased the max range by something like 1500-2000 yds. Effective range was increased but not by quite as much. Please note this was for indirect fire before 81mm mortars became standard issue.
Our Ideal "rifle" for squad use has no such need for that kind of capability.
I am not too sure how well sharp shoulders really feed in automatic weapons. In any case any advantages they have are mostly theoretical and usually will be unnoticed in a military grade rifle. After I had my 6.5 X .308 for a few years (bolt action) a fellow who shot on some of the teams I did had a rifle built in 6.5mm X .308 Ackley Improved (blown out, sharp shoulder) and he gave me an empty case. Weighing his case and mine empty and full of water to the top of the case mouth his case held slightly more than 1 grain of water more, out of just over 60 grains. Seating a bullet cuts in the capacity quite a bit, but a 2-3% increase in powder capacity doesn't really mean much and a military weapon is much better served with a slightly lower pressure level than going for that last 2% in performance. Short and fat has gotten some good results in bench rest shooting but please remember that the .30-06 had a fair amount of empty space in it when loaded with similar powders to the 7.62 X 51. Short and fat helps but once you have similar loading densities it's importance goes down and the advantage only shows up in guns/ammo that are shooting at under 1 minute of angle anyway.
Design a cartridge that will work in -40 degrees and also work at 130 degrees F.