Ideal rifle for ww2?

[muscogeemike]

The US tested the FN FAL in the 50's and found it had problems when exposed to prolonged cold.
I believe FN adressed the problems but at the time of WWII using it on the E. Front or in the Alutians would have been problimatic.

 

[yulzari]

Royal Marines found the SLR OK in Norwegian winters so they must have addressed any cold issues successfully.

I have used 30 round magazines on an SLR and it does make it hard to find good cover when prone. If the magazine could work as a double stack like the 9mm Finnish Suomi KP/31 or Argentine Hafdasa C-4 then that problem goes away. Myself I remain to be convinced how controllable any rifle can be in full automatic fire. Even an LMG will climb if fired standing despite the weight.

I wonder if we will be reinventing the EM-2 rifle and Taden MG in .280"?

 

[Shortround6]

Close

There may have been a bit of "fudging" going on the US tests to make the US rifle come out on top. Certainly even when comparing the early AR-15 to the M-14 some of the tests were less than fair or balanced.
While the M-14 is a decent rifle a few US generals were way too wedded to the "concept" and not the reality of the weapon. It was supposed to replace the M1 rifle, the M1 carbine, the M3 grease gun and the BAR. It was supposed to weigh only about 7 1/2 pounds and yet fire a round just as powerful as the .30-06 M2 ball. New powders meant the cartridge case could be smaller yet give the same performance. Just becasue you are a general does not mean you can repeal the laws of physics howver

For instance ALL military M-14s have the "ability" to fire full automatic, they just have the selector switch removed. Given the amount of drop in the stock (distance from the axis of the barrel and the pivot point on the shoulder) and it's weight anything after the 2nd round (and that one was going high) was heading for the sky. One plan was for the squad leader to carry the selector switches in his shirt pocket and issue them out in case of an emergency

Civilian M-14 clones do not have the hole in the side of the receiver to take the selector switch.

The M-14 had a fixed gas system, some FNs have a two position or variable system were if the action is sluggish for any reason more gas can be admitted to the cylinder for a bit more omph. The Bren had a similar system pre-war and may not have been the first with that ability.
A bit of playing with the rifles in cold weather to balance the amount of gas needed ( size of hole in the regulator) and the buffer strength should sort out most cold weather problems, there is very little in the inherent design of any gun that makes them more sensitive to cold than another design (except maybe tight tolerances?). If you can get a recoil operated gun to function in cold weather a gas gun should not be a problem. Recoil operated guns having a more "fixed" amount of power to work with since they balance moving part weights and springs. Not much adjustment on an already manufactured gun although a lot of tweaking can be done before production ( or the introduction of a MK II)

 

[vinnye]

If I remember correctly, a lot of guys did not like the M1 Garands "ping" noise made by the clip ejecting when empty.
This is because in close quarters fighting, jungle, house to house etc - the noise told the enemy that you were out of ammo!
A good rifle, but my vote goes to the Lee Enfield 303, being bolt action encourages slower accurate fire rather than just letting loose with semi- auto.

 

[parsifal]

Interesting analysis ... thought I was posting a picture of a Colt 45 automatic, not a Browning, but hey ... WTH ...

MM

Oops, your right. Did not look closely enough. Have not had much to do with the US 45, automatically assumed it to be the Browning.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Czechoslovakians have had the round that has 'intermediate' written all around itself, namely the 7.62×45mm vz. 52. It was discontinued because of Warsaw pact standardization on 7.62×39mm - the similar situation with .280 British.

 

[tyrodtom]

If I remember correctly, a lot of guys did not like the M1 Garands "ping" noise made by the clip ejecting when empty.
This is because in close quarters fighting, jungle, house to house etc - the noise told the enemy that you were out of ammo!
A good rifle, but my vote goes to the Lee Enfield 303, being bolt action encourages slower accurate fire rather than just letting loose with semi- auto.

That would come up only in very rare instances, it would have to be very close combat with only one M1 present, otherwise how would the enemy know who to charge. If several rifles were firing, they're not all going to run out at the same time, and who'd be able to hear the ping with several rifles firing.
At least with a Garand, you knew exactly when you were out of ammo, and the bolt stayed open ready for you to jam a clip in, and closed ready to fire soon a you pushed a fresh clip in. It'd close on your thumb if you weren't quick enough.

 

[Shortround6]

The heel of the hand goes against the op-rod handle to prevent this. The only time I got caught was single loading in the prone position using my thumb to push the round into the chamber, joint of the thumb hit the follower releasing the bolt.

Granted trying to load two rounds floating loose AND the clip one handed (left hand in shooting glove under the fore-end with sling running between left upper arm and sling swivel) gets a little awkward

Being on the firing line with a number of M1s at a rifle match you can sometimes hear the "ping" but knowing which rifle made the "ping" ????


you can also get more than one "ping" depending on the ground. Clip falling on grass/sand or rock/pavement.

Many rifles, including bolt actions, had bolt hold open devices to keep the bolt from closing on an empty chamber.

 

[parsifal]

I dont buy the "ping" argument either. however, the rebuttal you guys are giving is also suspect.

In the jungle, in the Owen Stanleys (and i expect applicable to any mountainaous jungle situation) the front is often just the width of the track wide. Literally the front man of the squad is "the front". If that mans rifle goes "pingt" and the enemy sees him (a big ask) hes in trouble.

Often times in the Jungle, things can be deathly quiet. Giving away your position is basically asking for trouble. I dont think the "ping" is enough noise to make that much of a difference, but i guess its at least theoretically possible for some suicide jockey to be lying in ambush....his mates draw fire, the chamber makes the giveaway noise and up the little rice eater jumps to kill some poor surprised doughboy who has just run out ot bullets...

I think unjustified, but some Australians considered the garand unreliable 9prone to jams especially in mud) in the jungle compared to the Lee Enfields they were carrying. Probably arose from ignorance, but it was an opinion

 

[tyrodtom]

I know a lot of rifles have a hold open after the last round, ( but my Enfield doesn't) but you may not notice it in the heat of action. That clip shooting up thru the air right in front of you eyes is hard to miss.

The sound of your rifle firing, and the muzzle flash is going to reveal your position, long before the ping of the clip ejecting.
A lot of infantrymen kept a ready clip in their upper pocket. A Garand is probably the fastest rifle to reload than any in the world.

That bugger hiding in the bush, waiting for you to reload, better be close and very quick.

 

[Matt308]

If I remember correctly, a lot of guys did not like the M1 Garands "ping" noise made by the clip ejecting when empty.
This is because in close quarters fighting, jungle, house to house etc - the noise told the enemy that you were out of ammo!
A good rifle, but my vote goes to the Lee Enfield 303, being bolt action encourages slower accurate fire rather than just letting loose with semi- auto.

Wive's tale. No truth to it. Hollywood may portray it as so, but anyone having been on a firing line will attest that ejection of a clip is not noticed except under extreme circumstances during prolonged firing. I know. I own one.

 

[RCAFson]

An interesting take on the Garand versus Lee Enfield:


Military Channel: Wars, Weapons, Games, Top Ten Lists

Guess which one is ranked higher?

 

[parsifal]

That is an interesting list. I wonder what the performance criteria were for the ordering

 

[Airframes]

Hmm. Interesting. I too wonder on the criteria, more so when looking at the entry for the SMLE, which states it was in service up to 1956.
Not quite correct - the SMLE began to be replaced, in 1941, by the Lee-Enfiled No. 4, as shown in the photo, which, although sharing many similarities, had a different bolt arrangement, simplified, graduated rear sight (even simpler on late -production variants), a slightly shorter barrel with exposed muzzle, and a number of other 'mods' to facilitate faster mass production. OK, performance was similar, but they were not the same weapon.
Likewise with the FN Fal - those used by the UK were the British, licence-built version, the L1A1, semi-auto only, with a different selector and sight arrangement, slightly lighter barrel and bolt carrier, and a different flash suppressor, among other things.
Nit-picking maybe, but again, it was different - different enough to question the statements and criteria in the posted 'Top 10' review.

 

[parsifal]

we were still using lee Enfields...the old style, but with more modern sights in 1980. As a training weapon admittedly, but i wonder where 1956 comes from?

 

[raumatibeach]

Do you think with rifles machine guns and possibly grenades going off near you including probably your own rifle going off near you ear you'd be able to pick out the ping of a Garand? Genuine question, if you don't have hearing protection when you're sighting a rifle in your ears will take a while to come back to normal, now multiply that by however many other weapons are going off at the same time.

 

[raumatibeach]

we were still using lee Enfields...the old style, but with more modern sights in 1980. As a training weapon admittedly, but i wonder where 1956 comes from?

I'm not sure when the NZ army got rid of them but we were hunting with them into the 90s with ex army ammo. Mine was a relic of the Boer war, the butt was sawn off and a rubber recoil pad added because the stocks on those rifles seemed to be made for fairly short people.

 

[parsifal]

Thats the thing about firefights, especially in the jungle.....ther can be all hell one minute then complete silence the next.

During the quiet, you can bet your boots some serious infliltration is being attempoterd, or the enemy is dead or out of ammo. You just never know. During those quiet times as you lie there stressing about what the enemy is doing, you hear every little thing happening around you....you are straining to hear twigs breaking or bushes rustling, so if you were close enough you would hear the ping of the Garand as the clip empties. Whether you could do anything about it, I am doubtful, but IMO opinion definately poosible for an enemy in close quarters to hear it.

In the jungle it is quite possible for an enemy to be just metres away and you not know it. It s a major factor in the war of nerves that is jungle warfare.

I should say that Ive never been in actual jungle compbat.


However in 1980, Australia began to organise its Rapid Deployment Force using its 3rd Task Force. Whilst I was Navy, the RDF was sn sll srmds concept designed to allow fully intergated and self sufficient force projections to Battalion level, and needed support echelons from all three of the services. I volunteered ato join the RDF in 1983 and was granted permission to undertake some jungle training at Tully, the new jungle warfare school in north queensland. the course was admittedly focussed on developing the individual skills rather than groups training that were considered necessary for the development of good techniques i the jungle. It was a tough course, because it concentrated on developing your ability to survive and withstand the pschological challenges thrown up in the jungle environment. You spent a lot of time, in the pitch dark, no-oune around you, listening for breaking twigs and noises, and not moving unless you needed to, and prefereably if you knew wherere the enemy was, and in what strength. Moving in the Jungle usually meant making noise, and making noise was quite likley to draw fire. It was harrowing stuff I can tell you.

 

[tyrodtom]

The garand ejects the clip as it ejects the last spent cartridge, in other words a fraction of a second after the last shot, your ears would still be dead and ringing from the last shot if you were close enough to have any chance of charging the shooter.

I've never been in ground combat, but I have hunted deer and wild boar, and know how important hearing is to the hunt, but I also remember how dead my hearing is right after a shot without hearing protection.

 

[dobbie]

The battlefield is an awfully noisy place. A ping from a sheet metal clip ejecting is not exactly going to stand out against rifle fire at any sort of distance. It is my understanding that some Marines used to carry an empty clip and would throw it against a nearby rock in order to get the enemy soldier to stick his head up, but that would be very close quarters battle.