Identification please

Discussion in 'Aircraft Pictures' started by terry.h, Sep 2, 2010.

  1. terry.h

    terry.h New Member

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    Hi,
    I'm completely new to this forum so if I make any mistakes I apologise before I start!!
    I recently bought a WW2 Luftwaffe photo album which contained quite a few aircraft photos. Amongst them was this photo of a helicopter which I cannot identify ...so can any body help? The photo is on agfa paper and dates from the war. On close inspection the advertising word 'Sabena' can be made out along the fuselage. All the rest of the photos are definitely from the war years but is the helicopter?
    The other two photos are of an Me 109 (Richthofen Geschwader) but which particular series was it (F??). Any ideas?
    Thanks in advance,
    Terry.
     

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  2. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    SABENA was the national airline of Belgium. The helicopter is a bell 47.
     
  3. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

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    That powerplant installation looks way too clean to be a Buchon
     
  4. T Bolt

    T Bolt Well-Known Member

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    The 109 isn't really a 109, but a post war Spanish built Ha1112 with a Merlin engine It looks like it is on display somewhere. The paint scheme is from Jg2. My guess would be that it is one of the aircraft used in the filming of the 1969 movie 'The Battle of Britain'. One of our members Terry (Airframes) would know better. he's making a model of the Ha1112 in a paint scheme from the movie right now
    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/start-finish-builds/movie-double-bill-26048.html
     
  5. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

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    No
    pretty certain the Ha1112 doesn't have a powerplant installation that clean. That intake would be farther up the nose too.
     
  6. T Bolt

    T Bolt Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking it may have been modified for the movie. Terry would know.
     
  7. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    #7 DerAdlerIstGelandet, Sep 2, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2010
    None of those pictures are from WW2.

    I suspect they were taken at a museum Post War. Look at the helicopter in the background to the left on the last picture. Certainly post war.

    Also the helicopter you see in the 1st pic is a Bell Model 47 which did not even fly for the first time until 8 Dec. 1945. I believe it is an H model which had a fully enclosed cabin and fuselage.
     
  8. Catch22

    Catch22 Well-Known Member

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    That's definitely a Merlin on that 109. Interesting.
     
  9. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Yep, the helicopter is a Bell 47G/H, in service with Saben in the mid 1950s.
    The 'Messerschmitt' appears to be a Hispano Ha-1112, a Spanish - built Bf109G-2, fitted with a Rolls Royce Merlin 500 series engine. This might be the one which was modified to look more like a Bf109E for the movie 'Pearl Harbour'. The chin intake which lead to the name 'Buchon', was faired over, and the oil cooler and carb intake modified and moved under the nose cowling, and the top cowlings modified also. the helicopter in the background at left looks like a Bristol Sycamore, a British machine used in the 1950s for rescue duties with the Bundes Luft.
    I would suggest that the pics of the 'Messerschmitt' were taken in the 1990s, at a museum, or military establishment with a museum,or at least 'gate guardians', possibly in Germany judging by the architecture. They are certainly not WW2 vintage. The 'Buchon' entered service with the Spanish Air Force in the early 1950s, being retired in 1965, for scrap, when the remaining fleet of 32 airframes were purchased or contracted for the BoB movie in 1968.
    After the movie, most were sold on to private collections, museums and for private individuals to maintain as airworthy. At least two were converted to look more like genuine Bf109s, this one apparently being one of them, and a further two were fitted with original DB605 engines, to become Bf109Gs, and one 'back-dated' to become a Bf109E.
    Judging by the tonal renditions in the photographs, these are B&W prints from colour originals, made to look like period prints.
     
  10. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I think we are all about to make his day a bad one. Sorry man...;)
     
  11. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Yep, sorry old boy! Hope you didn't pay a fortune for something billed as 'genuine' !
     
  12. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    That does blow, hopefully if you got it from an auction site you paid with Paypal.
     
  13. terry.h

    terry.h New Member

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    #13 terry.h, Sep 2, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2010
    Well, thanks for all your suggestions and general information, much appreciated. No, I'm not that disappointed :( To tell the truth I was disappointed when I originally first received the Luftwaffe 'photo' album and it wasn't what I had hoped. I didn't pay much for it because I hadn't seen it before I bought it. In total there are about 100 genuine photos --Luftwaffe personnel, portraits, builldings, and a few of a wrecked Ju 88 most of which are on Agfa Lupex and Leonar paper -- I paid about 40 Euros for the album so it won't break the bank! I also have to admit that I didn't see the more modern helicopter behind the 'Messerschmitt' until after I had put the photos on the Forum. No prizes for observation there!!
    I had a pretty sure feeling that some photos had been added as I saw a couple of things dated 1947!
    Anyway, over the next day or so I'll add a few more photos from the album so you can pick holes in them as well:D
    Thanks to you all again, keep an eye on this space!!
    Cheers,
    Terry.
     
  14. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    In addition to everyones observation I would also say those markings are far too large for regulation especially those chevrons.
     
  15. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    I believe the "109" is really a Hispano Ha.1109 Tripala.
     
  16. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I think it's the same plane you can see here. Believing in the caption it's Hispano HA-1109K1L.

    [​IMG]
     
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