identification with Bf 109 rudder marking ???

le_steph40 · Jul 1, 2011

Hello,

I would like to know the pilot of this Bf 109 (apparently Bf 109F) with 98 victories ???

Anybody to help me please ?

TIA, regards
Steph

stona · Jul 1, 2011

Edited.
Oops not what I thought it was! It does resemble Galland's WNr 6711,but it isn't.
Cheers
Steve

P-40K-5 · Jul 1, 2011

Could be Hptm. Eberhard von Boremski with EJG1 (104 victories)

Wayne Little · Jul 3, 2011

It is possibly one of Franz Josef Beerenbrock's machines from IV/JG51 but not 100% sure...t.he victory marking layout is much the same as some others from JG 51

stona · Jul 3, 2011

Wayne Little said:
It is possibly one of Franz Josef Beerenbrock's machines from IV/JG51 but not 100% sure...t.he victory marking layout is much the same as some others from JG 51

Funny you should say that because I had thought of Molders but by the time he got to this sort of number the markings were arranged without that top row above the top rudder hinge.
Steve

le_steph40 · Jul 3, 2011

Wayne Little said:
It is possibly one of Franz Josef Beerenbrock's machines from IV/JG51 but not 100% sure...t.he victory marking layout is much the same as some others from JG 51

Effectively, it looks like Berenbrock aircraft, but I'm not sure about it. Berenbrock aircraft had 7 victories on the first line on the top of the rudder and the victories marking are a little more wide.

Thanks for your help, I keep on look for..., regards
Steph

Wayne Little · Jul 3, 2011

stona said:
Funny you should say that because I had thought of Molders but by the time he got to this sort of number the markings were arranged without that top row above the top rudder hinge.
Steve

Molders victory markings were in Black on his F's.

It's a pity we can't see a bit more of the fuselage to identify markings...

P-40K-5 · Jul 3, 2011

Wayne Little said:
It is possibly one of Franz Josef Beerenbrock's machines from IV/JG51 but not 100% sure...t.he victory marking layout is much the same as some others from JG 51

I don't think its a JG51 bird. I have 3 Kangero Volumes books and every rudder kill markings I've seen are black. theres a few of Molders too with the marks above the hinge line.

stona · Jul 4, 2011

Wayne Little said:
Molders victory markings were in Black on his F's.

Yes indeed
Steve

Wayne Little · Jul 4, 2011

I'm still thinking Beerenbrocks aircraft,,,with the theory that the victory markings were redone after the 98 victory marked rudder, the other pics are for 102 and 103 victories in 9 rows rather than eight but are still in the same form of layout, only shorter and slightly thicker in style. The 102 -103 bars also appear to be rather bright as if freshly applied....maybe?
Hartman Grasser also had his victory markings laid out in a similar fashion, also in white.

P-40K-5 · Jul 4, 2011

very good theory/observations! it could very well be Beerenbrocks a/c. I've been searching for other pics of simular a/c
like the above, but with no luck.

le_steph40 · Jul 5, 2011

Hello,
Thank you both for your help and comments. Regarding Beerenbrock aircraft, I ask myself...

The aircraft shows 102 victories, Beerenbrock claims victorie 94-102 the same day (1.8.1942), that should signify that a "black man" repainted the rudder and victories marking between 2 missions the same day...???
What do you think about...?
Regarding Hartmann, Grasser, I didn't look for yet...
I'm still looking for...

Regards
Steph

Wayne Little · Jul 5, 2011

It would be more likely that a repaint occurred in the days after the 102nd victory....the first 5 claimed up to the middle of the day equals the 98 as shown on the rudder above, the others being claimed late in the day....so painted later or differently next day maybe? it is possible to make it 'fit' the timeline but not conclusive. The 103 was not added to the rudder for almost 2 months and then we get another issue 103-104 claimed within minutes of each other yet only 103 are showing at the later date on or after 30th Sept....
Another issue is why repaint to 102 and still effectively leave no room to add further victories? just maybe the 2 aircraft in question are different ones and different pilots???

P-40K-5 · Jul 5, 2011

miscounted? two victories taken away? hard to say. but looks to be Beerenbrock's mount.

le_steph40 · Jul 6, 2011

Wayne Little said:
It would be more likely that a repaint occurred in the days after the 102nd victory....the first 5 claimed up to the middle of the day equals the 98 as shown on the rudder above, the others being claimed late in the day....so painted later or differently next day maybe? it is possible to make it 'fit' the timeline but not conclusive. The 103 was not added to the rudder for almost 2 months and then we get another issue 103-104 claimed within minutes of each other yet only 103 are showing at the later date on or after 30th Sept....Another issue is why repaint to 102 and still effectively leave no room to add further victories? just maybe the 2 aircraft in question are different ones and different pilots???

Hello,

effectively, good theory ... you convinced me

vikingBerserker · Jul 6, 2011

Yea me too, well done Wayne.

Wayne Little · Jul 7, 2011

Thanks fellas...another note apparently Beerenbrock went on leave a few days after his 102nd victory, promoted to leutnant also...so at the time going on leave for almost 2 months then maybe it wasn't necessary to make extra room on the rudder...again not a concrete theory but......

Also for Steph a shot of Hartmann Grassers Bf109F, source : the internet.

le_steph40 · Aug 2, 2011

Wayne Little said:
Thanks fellas...another note apparently Beerenbrock went on leave a few days after his 102nd victory, promoted to leutnant also...so at the time going on leave for almost 2 months then maybe it wasn't necessary to make extra room on the rudder...again not a concrete theory but......

Also for Steph a shot of Hartmann Grassers Bf109F, source : the internet.

I didn't see that !!!

Thank you very much

Wayne Little · Aug 2, 2011

You're welcome!

jester_587 · May 16, 2013

Were the rudder victory markings only painted on the left side mainly? I have seen them on both but mostly on the left side. Does anybody know what would be the reasons for painting the markings on the left or the right side of the rudder and to what loose standard? If somebody was to reproduce rudders for a business, how would the makings be painted on?

identification with Bf 109 rudder marking ???

Chief Master Sergeant

Major

Banned

Moderator

Major

Chief Master Sergeant

Moderator

Banned

Major

Moderator

Banned

Chief Master Sergeant

Moderator

Banned

Chief Master Sergeant

Lieutenant General

Moderator

Attachments

Chief Master Sergeant

Moderator

Recruit

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads