SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I got to use this next time.
Impact of much stronger Taranto raid, Nov 1940?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
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Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
RE: Japan
It helps to remember that the Japanese expansion into the Pacific netted them what... exactly?
A lot of open ocean and a bunch of small islands they couldn't protect or hold, or keep the U.S. from just bypassing.
The airfield they were building at Lunga that we called Henderson Field was one of the few viable island bases that could actually accomplish something other that wasting garrison troops, as it could directly have an effect on U.S. supply lines to Oz.
And even then, other than the oil fields, what did they gain from all that territory on the Asian mainland? Were there that many resources to be garnered from the conquered areas?
There certainly weren't any shipyards worth the name bigger than handling a destroyer if I'm not mistaken.
So they basically got a bunch of atolls that the U.S. island hopped over to let die on the vine whilst not being able to defend the territory they had, nor serve as a buffer or a meat grinder to wear down U.S. forces and resolve.
Throw into the mix that they also pissed off (ROYALLY) the largest economy/industrial power on the planet and turned them into an implacable, unrelenting foe.
Great planning by a group of Big Brains...
It helps to remember that the Japanese expansion into the Pacific netted them what... exactly?
A lot of open ocean and a bunch of small islands they couldn't protect or hold, or keep the U.S. from just bypassing.
The airfield they were building at Lunga that we called Henderson Field was one of the few viable island bases that could actually accomplish something other that wasting garrison troops, as it could directly have an effect on U.S. supply lines to Oz.
And even then, other than the oil fields, what did they gain from all that territory on the Asian mainland? Were there that many resources to be garnered from the conquered areas?
There certainly weren't any shipyards worth the name bigger than handling a destroyer if I'm not mistaken.
So they basically got a bunch of atolls that the U.S. island hopped over to let die on the vine whilst not being able to defend the territory they had, nor serve as a buffer or a meat grinder to wear down U.S. forces and resolve.
Throw into the mix that they also pissed off (ROYALLY) the largest economy/industrial power on the planet and turned them into an implacable, unrelenting foe.
Great planning by a group of Big Brains...
- Thread starter
- #103
Admiral Beez
Captain
I think Japan saw that all their SEA neighbours less Thailand were gobbled up by Europeans and the USA. To Japan's mind IMO the choice was to acquiesce to US demands or get big enough to deter such moves.
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
They launched specific offensives to garner the rice-harvest in China. They also gained coal and some metal resources from capturing Manchuria before PH, right? At least, that's what I've read.
I don't know the state of the Singapore dockyards in 42 when they were captured, but they were capable of handling heavy ships, in good condition.
Definitely agreed; by the end of 1942, I think their obligations outstripped their capabilities.
Bingo.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
The Japanese had a bit of the manifest destiny so conquer the world and emperor is divine and so on. Lebensraum also so it's quite off how Nazism and Japanese Imperialism were brothers.
As an 'expert' I run into problems with the Japanese is that they always doublethink. And it this ability to hold 2 contradictory view points which makes assessment difficult.
Also I was reading about Tone which is one them cruisers things designed as scouts plane tenders. And they did some prisoner executions and it ruined the whole thing for me.
Japan was paranoid about being colonized.
So had to remove western powers from it's sphere of influence.
If Japan occupied Korea then a western power isn't occupied Korea.
Of course As a member of the British Empire, we should have conquered Japan. Just imagine how much opium we could have sold them.
As an 'expert' I run into problems with the Japanese is that they always doublethink. And it this ability to hold 2 contradictory view points which makes assessment difficult.
Also I was reading about Tone which is one them cruisers things designed as scouts plane tenders. And they did some prisoner executions and it ruined the whole thing for me.
Japan was paranoid about being colonized.
So had to remove western powers from it's sphere of influence.
If Japan occupied Korea then a western power isn't occupied Korea.
Of course As a member of the British Empire, we should have conquered Japan. Just imagine how much opium we could have sold them.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
re Japan's reasons for invading the countries they did.
__Korea:
Tungsten (4th? largest reserve in the world)
Molybdenum
Iron
Nickel
Magnesium
Zinc
Copper
Lead
Coal (anthracite, the highest grade)
Gold, Silver, etc
__Manchukuo:
Iron
Aluminum
Magnesium
Copper
Zinc
Lead
Oil (shale oil)
Coal
Gold, Silver, etc
__China:
Iron
Aluminum
Mercury
Molybdenum
Tungsten
Nickel
Tin
Zinc
Coal
Oil
Gold, Silver, etc
__Dutch East Indies
Nickel (largest reserve in the world)
Oil
Rubber
__Philippines:
Nickel
Cobalt
Chrome
Copper
Oil
Gold, Silver, etc
__Malaysia:
Iron
Aluminum
Copper
Oil
Rubber
Tin (largest? reserve in world)
__Vietnam:
Aluminum
Coal
Rubber
Gold, Copper
__Thailand:
Oil
Coal
Tin
Burma:
Oil
__Korea:
Tungsten (4th? largest reserve in the world)
Molybdenum
Iron
Nickel
Magnesium
Zinc
Copper
Lead
Coal (anthracite, the highest grade)
Gold, Silver, etc
__Manchukuo:
Iron
Aluminum
Magnesium
Copper
Zinc
Lead
Oil (shale oil)
Coal
Gold, Silver, etc
__China:
Iron
Aluminum
Mercury
Molybdenum
Tungsten
Nickel
Tin
Zinc
Coal
Oil
Gold, Silver, etc
__Dutch East Indies
Nickel (largest reserve in the world)
Oil
Rubber
__Philippines:
Nickel
Cobalt
Chrome
Copper
Oil
Gold, Silver, etc
__Malaysia:
Iron
Aluminum
Copper
Oil
Rubber
Tin (largest? reserve in world)
__Vietnam:
Aluminum
Coal
Rubber
Gold, Copper
__Thailand:
Oil
Coal
Tin
Burma:
Oil
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- Thread starter
- #107
Admiral Beez
Captain
Japan knew where the resources were, and knew what to do to seize these territories. But Japan had NFI how to exploit these resources in situ nor how to get these resources back to Japan in a war setting.
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
Right: they planned and executed the taking well, but failed in following up with the resource-recovery. No ASW worthy of the effort, and little planning to take advantage of the gains they'd made.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
The Destroyers did have ASW capability. Type 93 Sonar, Type 93 hydrophones. Carried depth charges although that depended on the destroyer class.
The Mk 14 torpedo fiasco made ASW unimportant. Then the Mk 14 started working after September 1943 and losses shot up but it was too late by then to change.
The Mk 14 torpedo fiasco made ASW unimportant. Then the Mk 14 started working after September 1943 and losses shot up but it was too late by then to change.
Shortround6
Major General
Just having Sonar doesn't translate into effective ASW.
British had Sonar in the mid/late 30s and yet in the Atlantic for several years???????
Likewise having a few depth charges isn't enough.
The British went from a 4 charge pattern (1 off the stern rack, 1 of each side from the K guns and another off the stern) to a 7 charge pattern, to a 10 charge pattern and some ships ended the war using a 14 charge pattern. 6 or 8 K guns?
British attached steel weights to the depth charges to make them sink faster (sub had less time to evade).
That is the simple stuff, Hedgehogs and Squid depth charge mortars came later.
British had Sonar in the mid/late 30s and yet in the Atlantic for several years???????
Likewise having a few depth charges isn't enough.
The British went from a 4 charge pattern (1 off the stern rack, 1 of each side from the K guns and another off the stern) to a 7 charge pattern, to a 10 charge pattern and some ships ended the war using a 14 charge pattern. 6 or 8 K guns?
British attached steel weights to the depth charges to make them sink faster (sub had less time to evade).
That is the simple stuff, Hedgehogs and Squid depth charge mortars came later.
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
How many of those destroyers were tasked to convoy escort, compared to how many were assigned to fleet duty? Got any numbers?
My impression is that convoy duty wasn't a big part of Japanese destroyer doctrine.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
The answer is a 5,000 word essay. It's not that simple. I am not writing a 5,000 word essay!
For my next trick, I will describe the conquests of Alexander the Great in 100 words.
So IJN didn't care about ASW.
Had very limited resources.
And when they cared they had even more limited resources and ran out of time.
German U boats attacked on the surface so ASDIC was not as useful as originally envisioned. Radar and air power was the next step. Also enigma and huff duff and Flower class and a more limited hunting grounds and more effective weapons like hedgehog and ship building and tech resources of the UK and so on ad infinitum.
Japan was basically the military and industrial equal to Italy. With less spaghetti and more katanas.
For my next trick, I will describe the conquests of Alexander the Great in 100 words.
So IJN didn't care about ASW.
Had very limited resources.
And when they cared they had even more limited resources and ran out of time.
German U boats attacked on the surface so ASDIC was not as useful as originally envisioned. Radar and air power was the next step. Also enigma and huff duff and Flower class and a more limited hunting grounds and more effective weapons like hedgehog and ship building and tech resources of the UK and so on ad infinitum.
Japan was basically the military and industrial equal to Italy. With less spaghetti and more katanas.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Hey The Basket,
re "Japan was basically the military and industrial equal to Italy."
Because of the expansion into Manchukuo and Korea, the Japanese had access to far more raw material than Italy. The only major material where Italy and Japan were on a par was in natural oil production at home, which was almost none in both countries.
The IJN was about 2x the size of the RM, and would have eradicated the Italian RM in any open seas scenario. If it was just the IJN and RM (ie no German forces), the IJN would have neutralized the RM in the MTO scenario about as easily as the British.
The IJA was about the same size as the Italian Army in 1940, and 2x the size in 1943.
Something to keep in mind is that the US/UK/Australian/NZ ground forces faced less than 10% of the total Japanese ground forces at any point in time during the war. Since the fighting was mostly defeat in detail, it was effectively even less in any real sense.
Pre 7 December1941, the disposition was China (60%), Manchukuo (25%), Japan (10%), Indochina (3%), Korea (2%), PTO (0%).
In 1945 at the time of Okinawa, the disposition was Japan (61%), China (19%), Manchukuo (9%), Indochina (4%), PTO (4%), Korea (1%).
re "Japan was basically the military and industrial equal to Italy."
Because of the expansion into Manchukuo and Korea, the Japanese had access to far more raw material than Italy. The only major material where Italy and Japan were on a par was in natural oil production at home, which was almost none in both countries.
The IJN was about 2x the size of the RM, and would have eradicated the Italian RM in any open seas scenario. If it was just the IJN and RM (ie no German forces), the IJN would have neutralized the RM in the MTO scenario about as easily as the British.
The IJA was about the same size as the Italian Army in 1940, and 2x the size in 1943.
Something to keep in mind is that the US/UK/Australian/NZ ground forces faced less than 10% of the total Japanese ground forces at any point in time during the war. Since the fighting was mostly defeat in detail, it was effectively even less in any real sense.
Pre 7 December1941, the disposition was China (60%), Manchukuo (25%), Japan (10%), Indochina (3%), Korea (2%), PTO (0%).
In 1945 at the time of Okinawa, the disposition was Japan (61%), China (19%), Manchukuo (9%), Indochina (4%), PTO (4%), Korea (1%).
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Quick Joe! The whole IJN is in the Mediterranean! We can take Tokyo Bay in a row boat!
The Regia Marina was designed to fight the Frenchies and not the IJN. And be very much a Mediterranean fleet.
So even if the IJN the was able to send a force into the Mediterranean, it would be of a size much smaller than the whole fleet so again the RM and IJN would be roughly equal at the point of contact. I sincerely doubt Italy would send it's entire fleet to the Pacific.
The RN was able to neutralize the RM? Or Axis power in the Med? Not until the USA got involved. The RN had to use a lot of resource in the Mediterranean because of the Regia Marina. Resource which wasn't in the Pacific or the North Atlantic.
The Regia Marina was under equipped and fighting a far superior enemy and still were getting the job done. That's a spicy meatball.
The Regia Marina was designed to fight the Frenchies and not the IJN. And be very much a Mediterranean fleet.
So even if the IJN the was able to send a force into the Mediterranean, it would be of a size much smaller than the whole fleet so again the RM and IJN would be roughly equal at the point of contact. I sincerely doubt Italy would send it's entire fleet to the Pacific.
The RN was able to neutralize the RM? Or Axis power in the Med? Not until the USA got involved. The RN had to use a lot of resource in the Mediterranean because of the Regia Marina. Resource which wasn't in the Pacific or the North Atlantic.
The Regia Marina was under equipped and fighting a far superior enemy and still were getting the job done. That's a spicy meatball.
- Thread starter
- #115
Admiral Beez
Captain
That's one of the flaws we often make in comparing war machines, be it aircraft, tanks or warships.... we omit to consider the doctrine, training/support, experience and will of the men operating them.
What choice did Japan have? If in the face of US demands in 1938-39, Japan's military-led government declares victory in China and withdraws to its pre-war territories in Manchuria and Korea.... and Japan does not occupy FIC in Sept 1940 (FDR's last straw, leading to seizure of all Japanese assets in US and full embargo).... what now? Japan is still burning through money and resources fast.
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ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Hey The Basket,
I suggest checking how many naval actions occurred between the RN and the RM after Operation Pedestal (none worth mentioning in a strategic or grand tactical sense - as far as I can find). The RN had neutralized the RM as of mid- to late-1942. If the RN had not been able to accomplish this, Operation Torch would not have happened when it did. (The US was not significantly involved in the Med until after Operation Pedestal.) Without the German involvement, it is unlikely that the RM would have survived as an effective fighting force past late-1941 to early-1942. This is no reflection on the RM, but is due to the relative sizes of the forces involved, the lack of RM air support outside of land based ranges, and the point that you made above - ie the RM was designed to fight the MN, not the RN (or the IJN).
AS to the IJN in the Med, I was rebutting your assertion that Italy and Japan were on an equal footing Militarily. If Japan could have committed as many ships and aircraft as the RN did, there is no reason that they could not have neutralized the RM more or less as quickly as the RN managed.
Obviously, in the real world situation it would have been impossible for Japan to project such force levels to the Med. But this is a 'What If' post, so . . .
I suggest checking how many naval actions occurred between the RN and the RM after Operation Pedestal (none worth mentioning in a strategic or grand tactical sense - as far as I can find). The RN had neutralized the RM as of mid- to late-1942. If the RN had not been able to accomplish this, Operation Torch would not have happened when it did. (The US was not significantly involved in the Med until after Operation Pedestal.) Without the German involvement, it is unlikely that the RM would have survived as an effective fighting force past late-1941 to early-1942. This is no reflection on the RM, but is due to the relative sizes of the forces involved, the lack of RM air support outside of land based ranges, and the point that you made above - ie the RM was designed to fight the MN, not the RN (or the IJN).
AS to the IJN in the Med, I was rebutting your assertion that Italy and Japan were on an equal footing Militarily. If Japan could have committed as many ships and aircraft as the RN did, there is no reason that they could not have neutralized the RM more or less as quickly as the RN managed.
Obviously, in the real world situation it would have been impossible for Japan to project such force levels to the Med. But this is a 'What If' post, so . . .
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
The RM was hampered by fuel limitations, and was rendered almost nugatory well before the Americans entered Mediterranean combat, aside from Pedestal.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
If you read Destroyer Captain by Captain Hara then yes the IJN did have ASW capability and did attack and sink submarines.
Whether it was good or bad is neither here nor there. That's a IJN problem and not a me problem.
The Regia Marina was still sailing convoys to North Africa into the early months of 1943. So again...yes with heavy losses but it was still functional. Good or bad is again a RM problem.
Whether it was good or bad is neither here nor there. That's a IJN problem and not a me problem.
The Regia Marina was still sailing convoys to North Africa into the early months of 1943. So again...yes with heavy losses but it was still functional. Good or bad is again a RM problem.
- Thread starter
- #119
Admiral Beez
Captain
Agreed. That's the premise of this thread, hitting the RM hard in Nov 1940 so they're less of a problem into 1941-43.
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
I see what you did there.
Bravo.
