Info needed on Italian-German co-operation in aircraft design/production/acquisition

[Civettone]

Hi guys

would any of you have some info concerning German-Italian cooperation in aircraft design/production ? We all know how the Italians licence produceded German DB's and how they purchased Mauser cannons and a number of Stukas and 109s. But is there more? What about German technology, avionics, radar, radio, etc ? What about the (dur)aluminum?

Germany bought a number of SM.82s, was thinking about licence producing the Fiat G.55 and there are some reports on the internet of Germans ordering Caproni Ca.313s and AR.135 engines. But I have my doubts about the veracity of these reports.

After 1943 Germany took over the Italian aircraft and also the aircraft industry. But that is a different story. I am more thinking about pre-Armistice.

Also, would be appreciated if you would have info on any non-aeronautical production cooperation

Kris

 

[Cave Tonitrum]

We know that there was cooperation between these axis powers and that sometimes it ran to the benefit of the Germans. Italian aerial torpedoes were acknowledged as superior to German and Italian tactics for employing them in attacks were considered superior as well. I have read an Allied intelligence report discussing that.


And as eluded to, the Fiat G55 was seriously considered as a replacement for the Me-109.

 

[Civettone]

could you dig up that report please ??



Kris

 

[Cave Tonitrum]

I wish I could. I'm afraid it's lost on the hard drive of an old laptop (As is my password for my old account here under Davidicus.)

 

[Cave Tonitrum]

I found this on the internet. The irretrievable documentation I have supports this.

Lone Sentry: Torpedo Bomber, Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM-79 (WWII U.S. Intelligence Bulletin, January 1943)

 

[Dogwalker]

The supply of engines and parts it was not a one-way, in fact the DB engines, and parts to be assembled, received by the Germans to speed up the start of production, were to be paid back with as many engines and parts after the production begun.

As for the Radar, after an initial lack of interest, which had slowed the development of Italian radars at the end of the '30s, after seeing in action the British naval radars at Cape Matapan, and the Germans ones in North Africa, Italians accelerated the development of their own naval models (as the EC.3, and his derived "Gufo" and "Folaga"), land based (the '"Argo", which was installed for the first time in Pratica di Mare in '42) and airborne (the "Arghetto," based on the same technology of the Argo, and only used in prototypes at the date of the armistice).
At the same time were acquired German naval radars (Fu.Mo., the first used in action by Italian vessels in june '42, on the destroyer "Legionario"), land models Freya and Wurzburg (the first in North Africa in '42), and airborne.
In this regard, The Regia Aeronautica acquired 3 Me110 and 12 Do.217 night fighters, equipped with radar Telefunken Lichtenstein BC Fu.G.202, to equip the 41° Stormo Intercettori Notturni. However they never thought, to use these radars (which by the way the crews considered unsatisfactory, preferring the fighter guide from the ground, which had much more precise radars) on Italian aircrafts. One more Telefunken radar was acquired to equip the Cant Z.1018 Night Fighter prototype, but the series aircrafts had to have '"Arghetto".
Italians built, and bought by the Germans, several dozen of radar jamming equipment too.
In all, Italians bought several dozen of German radars and jammers to cover their technological gap in this sector, but there was no exchange of technology. The types that they were developing at the same time were based on different tecnologies.

 

[Dogwalker]

These are two destroyer of the same "Soldati" class. Left the "Fuciliere" with an italian Gufo radar, right the "Legionario", with a German Fu.Mo.

The "Folaga" land based radar. Apparently very different from the "Gufo", it was really based on the same two directional antennas (one emitting, one recieving) tecnology.

 

[Elmas]

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/fl...isons-italian-guidonia-test-centre-33001.html

 

[Civettone]

Was reading this old thread about the Italian DB 601.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/italian-copies-db-601-a-30951-2.html

It seems the Italian copy of the DB 601Aa was a bit better than the original, because the Italians assembled it by hand.

from teiresiasx:

According to Brotzu – Caso – Cosolo, Dimensione Cielo, Aerei Italiani nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale, vol. 3, Caccia Assalto, Rome, 1972, page 33 «*The DB's of the aircraft [i.e the bi-motor Ro. 58 at its maiden flight] are not those excellently license-built by Alfa Romeo and capable of developing up to 50 HP more than the original DB. They are instead old and worn out German built engines, which have only undergone a refitting...*»

It also seems that Dogwalker's theory of the DB 605 being used for the first 5-series is very likely as the same happened with the Re.2001 and C.201: the first versions received German built DB 601s. It is possible that some of these were actually DB 601A-1 engines.

It is indeed remarkable that the Italians never produced the much superior DB 601E. A possible explanation might be that the DB 601E with its pressurized water cooling was too complicated to produce. However, I assume the DB 605 had a similar system and this engine was licence produced. Another possibility is that the Germans were unwilling to share this new technology. I am really curious to know what the story is here.

In that respect, Almas made the claim that

During the Battle of Alam Halfa the Italians were astonished of the sudden appearance of MG 42 whose existance was kept strictly secret by the Germans to the Italians; the Italians repayed with the same money denying the plans of the Class R submarines when the Germans asked for them (a specialized cargo submarine) that were desperately needed by the Germans to go to the Far East to import rare metals, rubber, morphine etc.....

Kris

 

[Elmas]

The episode of the MG42

is depicted in

http://www.quota33.com/catalog/images/dominioni_alamein.gif?osCsid=7f0b383037c4fee9875c760ea55bd47a

My Father spent 22 years in Libya as a building contractor from 1966 to 1989 and very often he had Mr. Caccia Dominioni, the Author, as a guest for dinner, in those times it wasn't very easy to find a dish of spaghetti down there.

Mr. Caccia Dominioni, that in the Africa campaign was the Commanding Officer of "31° Battaglione Guastatori" (Italian Engineers Corp), was an Architect by profession and, after the War, was the responsible for the Italian War Cemeteries in N.A.

Also, Mr. Caccia Dominioni said that during the Axis retreat from Alamein shooting was tri-lateral, as English were shooting at Italians and Germans, Germans were shooting at English and Italians and Italians were shooting at English and Germans.....

The episode of the "Classe R" cargo submarines

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/...e R/classeRIsommergibiliItaliani-19631024.jpg

http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/sommergibili/Remo800.JPG

is depicted in this book

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3958/firmavr1.jpg

that you can find here

http://www.marina.difesa.it/documentazione/editoria/Documents/Cat_2012.pdf

 

[Civettone]

Thanks a lot Elmas, amazing info !

I wonder though how the author would know this MG was kept a secret? It was a new weapon...

Btw, what is Quota 63 del Ruweisat?

Kris

 

[Elmas]

I hope that you were able to translate from Italian.... The Italians were very upset as they discovered the use of MG42 from the different noise during the night combats...... I'm wondering what would have happened if England would have kept secret to the Americans the Magnetron.....
Italians in those days were not at all good friends of Germans, and neither Fascists with the Nazis were:but unfortunately Mussolini was a good friend of Hitler .....

For Ruweisat and the so called "First Battle of El Alamein" see

First Battle of El Alamein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Quota 63" means 63 meters above sea level.

 

[Elmas]

All the papers beween SKL and Supermarina about the "Classe R" submarines can be found here, from page 453 onwards

 

[Thomas Van de Velde]

I'm quite sorry for "kicking" this old Topic, I'm new here and came across this one "by accident".

I am quite aware of German Radar Capability during World War II, and also found Allied Intelligence Reports of Radars deployed in the Meditterenean Theatre. That "Two Disher" was the Original Lorenz-input for the German "Gun-Laying Radar" Contest. This was won by the Telefunken Company, with it's "Wurzburg" Radar. But since 1936, Lorenz had been experimenting with UHF-based Radar, and using quite simple Transmitter Triodes with much higher efficiency. But at the expense of (at first, 1941 with Hohentwiel this changed) Output Power and quite limited accuracy for Gun-Laying. However, by the 1939 "turndown" of their design, they had been at this matter for 3 full years, and produced several Dozen "Lorenz Wurzburgs" (FuMG-38L and 39L). These ended up (according to Allied Intelligence Report I've got somewhere, don't ask me where now Hahaha) being Sold to Italy by Lorenz. The British were aware of their use there.

The "underpowered" Lorenz Radars however, had one MAJOR advantage for "Cross-National" use:
They used a Vacuum-Tube Technology, and layout, that was highly Standarized to "Norms of the Day".
Basically, this ment that Italian manufacturing plants (such as Fivre) of Vacuum Tubes, could simply put in Upscaled Versions...
Of what they (most likely) allready knew: The 5-pin Acorn Base, wich came "from across the Pond" to Europe:
The 955 Acorn Triode was copied by almost every Nation, manufacturer and such, working in the Domain of Ultra High Frequencies.
And thus Radar. Lorenz just decided to upscale this Low-Power UHF-triode to a 12 Watt version, the original was 2W.

By 1940, every "civilized" nation with ANY production-capacity of Vacuum Tubes, had copied this design.
Thus this ment, the Lorenz Radars (the Dual-Dishers like FuMG-38L 39L) could be used ANYWHERE by ANYONE.
Without the need for a new Production-line in Electronics Industry = Just pass on the Tube internal Construction Data.
And put on the "Standard Issue" 5-pin Acorn Base.
Replacements/Spares would thus have formed no problem for Italy to make.
Totally independent of German Luftwaffe/Navy (GEMA Coorporation) produced Vacuum Tubes.

Also Wassermann Radars were deployed at Italian Radar-Locations, but these were produced by the GEMA Co.!
Thus the NAVY basically controlled where/how these Radars would be put, NOT the Luftwaffe (Goring) thus.
Nor any other Nazi-Party member, and the Kriegsmarine had every motivation to Help the Italians whereever possible.