Information about the FW190B?

[tomo pauk]

...The BMW 801TJ was also an "integral turbocharger" in that the engine, intercooler and turbo supercharger were one tightly integrated package rather than separate as per most of the American units which made the unit more compact. If you look at say a Ju 88S with the standard 801 compared to a Ju 388 with the turbo version you will be struck by the much greater diameter of the latter say about 30% bigger: that's the intercooler which consisted of 5 units arranged in an annular fashion. I doubt it would fit around the basic 190 airframe. I would also argue that the BMW801TJ had very large intercoolers designed to allow opperation and greater height than the US fighters and that this bulk precluded integration in a standard fighter.

Hi, could you please elaborate a bit about the BMW-801J installation as having 30% greater diameter than standard 801D? The inter-coolers were located aft the cylinders, not around them.

...
Daimler Benz and Junkers had turbo versions of their DB603 and Jumo 213 (even 211) and they showed up in a variety of projects, including the ME 410.

Could you please provide some more info about Jumo engines with turbo?

In general the Germans were able to improve their two speed superchargers to the point that they had acceptable performance at bomber height.

I'd have a similar request here, too - what German two-speed superchargers have had acceptable performance at bomber height? What should be the acceptable performance, BTW?

 

[davebender]

Whose bombers are we referring to?
USAAC heavy bombers operated at about 27,000 feet.
RAF Bomber Command operated at about 20,000 feet.
Most other bombers and attack aircraft operated well below 20,000 feet.

 

[Denniss]

How many BMW801S motors were built?

660 Fw 190 A-9 were built, if they built the usual 1/3 as spare engines then 900. They may have issued 801S engines to upgrade kits for existing A-8 but verifyable numbers are hard to find.

The gondola guns added ~7% weight to the Bf 109 so I would expect the climb performance to be reduced by the same amount (if not higher).

 

[Milosh]

Hi Denniss,

I have seen the number of ~900 Fw190A-9s built. Can you give the source for this 660 number?

I have also seen the number 1/2 for spares and Fw190A-8s were also fitted with the S engine (maybe this is a reading comprehension problem by the source considering your upgrade statement).

 

[davebender]

Sounds like a reasonable exchange for triple the firepower.

Bear in mind that Me-109s get 1,800hp engines during 1944 which more then compensates for 215kg weight increase.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Gondola penalty for a 109G-6 was about 45-50 seconds to get to 20,000 ft and about 8-12 kph in maximum speed.

The 109G/K, even with gondolas, was never as an effective bomber-destroyer as the 190A, even when taking the lower cost of the 109 into account.

Analysis of German guncamera footage on USAAF heavy bombers showed FW 190 pilots, on average, fired at closer range, fired longer bursts that were more likely to be on target and averaged nearly four times as hits per attack run.

 

[Denniss]

Hi Denniss,

I have seen the number of ~900 Fw190A-9s built. Can you give the source for this 660 number?

I have also seen the number 1/2 for spares and Fw190A-8s were also fitted with the S engine (maybe this is a reading comprehension problem by the source considering your upgrade statement).

Bundesarchive production data confirms 660 aircraft although it may be incomplete especially for the last months. I don't know if company records survived tha war. I hope none just counted the Werknummer blocks assigned to A-9 aircraft to arrive at the number of 900. And I forgot the F-series ground attack versions, according to BA they delivered ~1400 Fw 190F in 45 but no breakdown into F-8 and F-9, just 147 F-9 for January are confirmed, production was assumed to start in december 44.

 

[wiking85]

How many A-9s were actually operational though, given the conditions in September 1944 to the end of the war?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190#A-9

 

[Milosh]

Thank you Denniss.

 

[Koopernic]

Bundesarchive production data confirms 660 aircraft although it may be incomplete especially for the last months. I don't know if company records survived tha war. I hope none just counted the Werknummer blocks assigned to A-9 aircraft to arrive at the number of 900. And I forgot the F-series ground attack versions, according to BA they delivered ~1400 Fw 190F in 45 but no breakdown into F-8 and F-9, just 147 F-9 for January are confirmed, production was assumed to start in december 44.

Production records after November 1944 were lost. However production continued probably through to April 1945 probably doubling those produced to 1800. Also A8's were upgraded to A9 standard. You can tell the difference between and A8 and A9 by the presence of an extra cooling gill but that's about it. You can see them appear in the registrar of serviceable aircraft from early October in most 190 units.

 

[Denniss]

Not all records are lost, BA has 20 A-9 and 103 A-9/R11 in december and 67/50 in january, just 12 A-9 in february (probably incomplete from february). One can asume the F-9 had higher priority than the A-9 fighter as there were better aircraft available for the fighter job.

 

[Milosh]

You can tell the difference between and A8 and A9 by the presence of an extra cooling gill but that's about it. You can see them appear in the registrar of serviceable aircraft from early October in most 190 units.

Any drawing of A-8s and A-9s I have the same number of cooling gills > 3.

Can you post a drawing showing the extra gill.

 

[Aozora]

Production records after November 1944 were lost. However production continued probably through to April 1945 probably doubling those produced to 1800. Also A8's were upgraded to A9 standard. You can tell the difference between and A8 and A9 by the presence of an extra cooling gill but that's about it. You can see them appear in the registrar of serviceable aircraft from early October in most 190 units.

I don't know where you get these figures from; the best source of information so far is Smith Creek's Fw 190 Vol 2 (pages 521-529) which estimates c. 900 - and that's after doubling those found on the available W. Nr lists.

 

[Aozora]

Any drawing of A-8s and A-9s I have the same number of cooling gills > 3.

Can you post a drawing showing the extra gill.

From pages 529 642 of Smith Creek vol 2:

the extra gill has been outlined in red:

 

[Milosh]

Aozora, the gill you outlined can be found on a photo taken in 1943 at Wright Field of a G-3.

 

[Denniss]

As I said - you may get major errors if try to compile production from Werknummer ranges. Production data from 12/44 and after 1/45 seems to be lost but aircraft delivery data to units should be complete until 2/45, maybe 3/45, neither of them supports 900 A-9.
At best ~700 produced/delivered with an unknown number of A-8 conversions with 801S engine.

The 801S neither required another cooling grill (not air intake) nor did it have a different fan, they tried a fan with more blades but cooling effect was minimal while requiring more power to drive so it was dropped.

 

[tomo pauk]

According to Smith and Creek all four Fw 190 B-0s (V46, V47, V48 and V49) were powered by 801 Ds. The first of the four, V46, 0046, TI+IK was the only one fitted with the larger 20.3 m2 wing and then only between March and October 1943.

There were serious problems fitting a BMW 801 J into the Fw 190 airframe according to provisional drawings. It was a much bulkier engine assembly. The supercharger needed to be lowered by at least 50mm which would have entailed major work on the engine/supercharger assembly. An extra attachment point was required on the lower strut of the engine bearer frame.
Compared to liquid cooled versions, no central cannon could be fitted and though this gave an opportunity to fit a larger fuel tank I suspect that at a time when ever heavier armament was considered a requirement this may have been a disadvantage.

Once again things are easier to write than do.

View attachment 444624

Cheers

Steve

Steve - can you please re-post the picture of the Fw 190 project with turboed BMW?

 

[stona]

I'll try to find it, probably after the weekend.
Cheers
Steve