Instrument panel of the Me262B1a/U1

[Komet]

Hi all,
Looking for a bit of technical advice as to what specific instruments were on the 262B night fighter.
I'm in the process of slowly building up a full instrument panel for this aircraft and am specifically trying to find what type of master repeater compass was fitted to this aircraft. It is a larger diameter version of what is fitted to the single seat variants so am assuming it is a PFK-f3 but have no confirmation of this. Obviously a late war version. Does anyone know what compass was fitted? And perhaps the Fl number?
Thanks in advance.

 

[mjfur]

Nachbau Gerätebrett Messerschmitt Me 262 B-1 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

https://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Messerschmitt-Me-262-B-Zweisitzer.bmp

Blindflugtafel Me262 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

 

[Wurger]

there are the PFK radio-compasses used for the Luftwaffe kites. All of them can be found also in the Me 262 cockpits.

The radio-compass , the Fl.23334 Führertochterkompass PFK f2 here the variant of the 1944 ..

the pic source:

Blindflugtafel Me262 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

Fl.23334 Führertochterkompass PFK / f 2, 1944 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

Fl.23334 Führertochterkompass FK-f 2, 1944 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

or ...
Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass KT-f3, 1944

Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass KT-f3, 1944 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

or ...
Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass PFK-f3, 1942 and 1944

Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass PFK-f3, 1942 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass PFK-f3, 1943 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

 

[Komet]

Thank you mjfur and Wurger some good info there.
So looks like it is the -f3 but does it have the knurled outer adjustable ring as on the smaller -f2 version. Very hard to tell from the photos but perhaps not.
The second link that mjfur posted is an amazing photo.
Also the 1944 version that Wurger posted I have not seen that before the KT-f3.

 

[Wurger]

Thank you mjfur and Wurger some good info there.
So looks like it is the -f3 but does it have the knurled outer adjustable ring as on the smaller -f2 version. Very hard to tell from the photos but perhaps not.
The second link that mjfur posted is an amazing photo.
Also the 1944 version that Wurger posted I have not seen that before the KT-f3.

My pleasure.

Also here is an excerpt form the Luftwaffe Geräte liste ... the Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass PFK f3, Gerät Nr. 127-118A is stated there as the indicator for the Me 262. Although the KT f3 is not said to be of the jet plane but its Fl and Gerät numbers are the same like of the PFK f3. Just the differnet manufacturers.

and here is the Führertochterkompass in the rear cockpit ...

the pic source: Nachbau Gerätebrett Messerschmitt Me 262 B-1a U1, Beobachterplatz | Deutscheluftwaffe

IMHO it looks like the KT f2 one Fl. 23334 but the Gerät Nr. 127.113A-2 made by the gzy in 1945.

th epic source: the net.

 

[Komet]

That is perfect! Thank you so the PFK-f3 is the original compass for the Me262B night fighter and the Gerät Nr. 127-118A confirms the exact model. I have an opportunity to purchase this compass so will go ahead with this now - if they accept a payment plan!
I note that the compass in the rear cockpit is the smaller diameter PFK-f2 with the knurled outer ring. Great quality photo btw.

 

[Daggerr]

Note that there was already a topic on this subject: Looking for Me262b-1a/u1 instrument panel layout

 

[Komet]

Ok thanks.
Two photos of the exact compass for the Me262B1a/U1.
Hopefully I'm successful in the purchase.

 

[Wurger]

Ok thanks.
Two photos of the exact compass for the Me262B1a/U1.
Hopefully I'm successful in the purchase.

However I would say it looks like the model 1942. The Me 262 didn't see the service untill 1944. So the more correct would be the one of the 1944 or 1945. IMHO. But there were as many variations as manufacturers.

 

[Komet]

Ok that was a concern and I wonder what the differences were from 42 to the 1944 variant.
Perhaps NOS used!

 

[Wurger]

Ok that was a concern and I wonder what the differences were from 42 to the 1944 variant.
Perhaps NOS used!

Externally it could be the dial or the shape of the guage arms for instance. The internal structure could have been slighlt different as the radionavigation devices also could vary. Anyway as I have said there were as many variations as manufacturers. And for the reason , if memory serves, the later aircraft guages didn't have the name of the manufacturer ( Hersteller ) printed on the dials for instance but the name was coded as three-letter abbreviation pressed or printed on the indicator data plate or its case.

Here is a Führertochterkompasses of 1945 also assiociated with the Messerschmitt Me 262 B-1a/U1 Nachtjäger.

and the one also of the 1945 that better fits to the guage seen in the images of the rear cockpit than these above ...

To compare ... the Fl.23333 Führertochterkompass PFK-f1 made by the Albert Patin factory in Berlin in 1942 ...

And the Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass PFK-f3 ( two of 1942 and one of 1943) ... please notice that the left one was made by the J.C.Eckardt A.G, Stuttgart as the Patin manufacturer while the middle one also made by the J.C.Eckardt A.G in Stuttgart but still under the Patin licence like the one you are going to buy. The right one is the 1943 model but made by the Albert Patin factory. A couple of minor differences can be noticed.

the picture source: Führertochterkompass | Suchergebnisse | Deutscheluftwaffe

To sume up ... IMHO the Führertochterkompass for the Me 262 should be either the PFK f3/ KT f3 model 1944 ( the PFK f3 model 1943 at least ) or the KT f8 model 1945. In other words these should look like the guages below ...

Cockpitprofil Me 262 A-1a | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

Fl.23338 Führertochterkompass KT-f3, 1944 | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

Führertochterkompass KT-f8 | Suchergebnisse | Deutscheluftwaffe

www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

 

[Komet]

Wow, That's a lot of excellent info there especially regarding the manufacture's codes and differences. Thanks for all that. I think obtaining a 1944 or 45 version of the -f3 variant is going to be very difficult if not impossible. (or ridiculously expensive)

And yes the later versions mostly had an outline only version of the aircraft symbol whereas earlier versions were solid filled. The two compasses you show "for fighters only" have aircraft symbols I haven't seen before.

In all my searching and research I have only seen one wartime photo of the front cockpit of the Me262B1a/U1 which is the photo mjfur posted earlier in this thread. This has the larger -f3 version whereas the rear seat and all single seat 262s have the smaller -f2 version but it does look like it has the solid aircraft symbol. Which is why I went with that version. .

 

[Wurger]

Wow, That's a lot of excellent info there especially regarding the manufacture's codes and differences. Thanks for all that. I think obtaining a 1944 or 45 version of the -f3 variant is going to be very difficult if not impossible. (or ridiculously expensive)

And yes the later versions mostly had an outline only version of the aircraft symbol whereas earlier versions were solid filled. The two compasses you show "for fighters only" have aircraft symbols I haven't seen before.

In all my searching and research I have only seen one wartime photo of the front cockpit of the Me262B1a/U1 which is the photo mjfur posted earlier in this thread. This has the larger -f3 version whereas the rear seat and all single seat 262s have the smaller -f2 version but it does look like it has the solid aircraft symbol. Which is why I went with that version. .

I see. The image you attached is one of the picture series taken of the captured two-seater. So the shot of the rear cockpit shows the same aircraft. Thanks to that we may see that there were used two different types of the guage. As I've mentioned that the PFK f3/ KT f3 model 1944 would be the perfect ones. But I understand it is not too easy to find these. Here a couple of shots of the guage you would need IMHO ...

the pic source: the net.

 

[mjfur]

Here's Me-262A Wnr. 112385

 

[Komet]

I see. The image you attached is one of the picture series taken of the captured two-seater. So the shot of the rear cockpit shows the same aircraft. Thanks to that we may see that there were used two different types of the guage. As I've mentioned that the PFK f3/ KT f3 model 1944 would be the perfect ones. But I understand it is not too easy to find these. Here a couple of shots of the guage you would need IMHO ...

View attachment 838380
View attachment 838378
View attachment 838379
the pic source: the net.

The photo I posted is not very good quality but if you look closely you will see that the compass instrument is the same diameter as the artificial horizon. The photos you posted are all of the Me262A single seat which has the smaller -f2 compass. - the same size as the altimeter and ASI and VSI etc.

 

[Wurger]

The photo I posted is not very good quality but if you look closely you will see that the compass instrument is the same diameter as the artificial horizon. The photos you posted are all of the Me262A single seat which has the smaller -f2 compass. - the same size as the altimeter and ASI and VSI etc.

It is a light trick. I have the same pic in a book for the Me 262 and it is of much better quality. In fact the Wendehorizont is larger. The trick is because the artificial horizont is hidden in the shadow at its top and left side. It results in better view at the right and bottom edge of the indicator. However not the whole edge but the inner one where the glass ends. What is more the shape of the dial of the guage that is slightly bulged what makes the impression that the diameter of the device is smaller.

 

[Komet]

These are admittedly reconstructed panels but the first shows the Me262A single seat pilots panel and the second the Me262B1a/U1 forward pilots panel. The -f2 in the A and the -f3 in the B. I'm thinking this is the same compass size as in that wartime photo. What do you think?

 

[mig2830]

As the night fighter me262 was equiped with the k22 autopilot, the compas was the PFK /f3 type as it has the read out of the headningen used by the k22 for correction.

 

[Wurger]

These are admittedly reconstructed panels but the first shows the Me262A single seat pilots panel and the second the Me262B1a/U1 forward pilots panel. The -f2 in the A and the -f3 in the B. I'm thinking this is the same compass size as in that wartime photo. What do you think?

Ok. I understand. However .. The German factories were making items that had the standarized , almsot stricted followed dimensions mostly. Here below the diagram of the central panel for the Luftwaffe kites accepted by the RLM. Can you see the location of the Führertochterkompaß ?
Your pic is very blurry and it is quite difficult to state where are side, top and bottom edges of the guages there. However the image I found in the book for the Me 262, shows it very fine. The radio-compass is located between the AFN 2 radio navigation display unit (on right) and the Altimeter (on left). What is more the compass is slightly moved towards the altimeter. It results in a narrower open space at the left edge of the compass and larger one on the right side. In the shot you used as the example the compass almost fill the entire space between the AFN 2 radio navigation gauge and the altimeter. So .. if we compare it to the indicator of the front cockpit of the Berta varsion in the image, the Führertochterkompaß is not of the type like the one used for the reconstruction. And one more thing .. the bottom edge of the central panel was straight but not rounded at the compass bottom as seen in the pic. To sum up .. if it would be the larger radio-compass indicator it would require changings to the shape of the top cover of the central panel in order to accomodate the unit. In the pic you posted it is clearly noticed that it is the standard RLM panel and the radio-compass is of the same size we may seen in the left image of your post #17 above. Certainly the variations to the central panel and its guages there could happen , especially at the end of the war. But based on the picture it is the same indicator PFK f3/ KT f3 model 1944 used also for the A subtype and seen also in my post #11 and 13.

 

[Komet]

Ok. I understand. However .. The German factories were making items that had the standarized , almsot stricted followed dimensions mostly. Here below the diagram of the central panel for the Luftwaffe kites accepted by the RLM. Can you see the location of the Führertochterkompaß ?
Your pic is very blurry and it is quite difficult to state where are side, top and bottom edges of the guages there. However the image I found in the book for the Me 262, shows it very fine. The radio-compass is located between the AFN 2 radio navigation display unit (on right) and the Altimeter (on left). What is more the compass is slightly moved towards the altimeter. It results in a narrower open space at the left edge of the compass and larger one on the right side. In the shot you used as the example the compass almost fill the entire space between the AFN 2 radio navigation gauge and the altimeter. So .. if we compare it to the indicator of the front cockpit of the Berta varsion in the image, the Führertochterkompaß is not of the type like the one used for the reconstruction. And one more thing .. the bottom edge of the central panel was straight but not rounded at the compass bottom as seen in the pic. To sum up .. if it would be the larger radio-compass indicator it would require changings to the shape of the top cover of the central panel in order to accomodate the unit. In the pic you posted it is clearly noticed that it is the standard RLM panel and the radio-compass is of the same size we may seen in the left image of your post #17 above. Certainly the variations to the central panel and its guages there could happen , especially at the end of the war. But based on the picture it is the same indicator PFK f3/ KT f3 model 1944 used also for the A subtype and seen also in my post #11 and 13.

View attachment 838471
View attachment 838469

Ok this has really forced me into more research.
The PFK-f2 has an 8cm diameter and as described in your technical drawing which equates to all the panels you have shown. (Item 6)
The PFK-f3 is the larger unit with an 11cm diameter. So this unit could not fit into any 262A panel - only the 262B night fighter.
It may be slightly smaller than the artificial horizon but is definitely bigger than the altimeter, VSI, ASI etc.