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All you have said is good. I know that top speed in only a certain part of the equation for fighting. The info you have provided is probably more important. Unfortunately we often have top speed and little else in order to do an analysis (especially my data).wmaxt said:With respect to D-Day and the surrender escort, that is undoubtedly true as the P-38s area because as you put it "Easy Identification". I don't have the back up but he flew P-38s on other occasions to.
Dave, The L model could go faster than 414mph, there are several reports including a AAF test, that its top speed at ~25,000ft was as high as 443mph. I only have a Lockheed graph at this time so I can't nail it down as fact (I require at least two different and reliable sources before I'll accept this kind of stuff as fact). Here are a couple of things to consider:
1. Absolute top speed is only an issue in level flight in a relatively straight line ie. persuing/running. Even using 414mph the only enemy fighter that exceeded that was the Bf-109K with special fuel. The P-51 was only faster (using 414mph) between 20,000ft and 27,000ft at all other altitudes the P-38 was as fast or faster.
2. After two turns speed was running in the 250mph to 325mph range anyway with energy retention and acceleration being much more important, the P-38 excelled at both. These speeds also allowed the P-38 to use its maneuvering flaps letting it turn with about anything out there.
3. In a bounce/escape dive the level top speed doesn't enter into the equation.
4. Finally the maximum top speed is only valid at one altitude/condition so in reality it was only a bench mark and even that was dependant on aircraft condition.
wmaxt
syscom3 said:The P38 was a 1938 design.
And it was designed to shoot down bombers, not dogfight fighters.
Plus it wasnt designed for mass production, thus it had a complicated design and structure.
So yes it wasnt a modern type of fighter of what was expected in 1944/1945.
syscom3 said:The decision to not second source the P38 (and it should have been done in 1941) was one of the great blunders on the war.
Imagine having a couple hundred of these fighters available for operations in the SW Pacific by summer 1942.
wmaxt said:Soren, I mentioned the Bf-109K models earlier. they couldn't hit 452 without the C3 fuel and the evidence suggests that that fuel was only available intermittently and in small quantities.The Fw-190D and Ta-152s are a possible but the only tests I've seen show 414mph for the Fw-190D9 and I will need two corroborating test reports from separate sources before I accept a different figure.
Soren said:wmaxt, not to be harsh but, that is bullsh*t and you know it ! Even on B-4 fuel the K-4, G-6/AS, G-10 and G-14 easily achieved speeds greater than 414 mph, the G-10 achieving 688 km/h (430 mph) on B-4 fuel.
The slowest listed speed for the Fw-190 D-9 is 685 km/h (428 mph) and was achieved at Start u. Notleistung - 1,750PS@3,250RPM, with the MW-50 system installed speeds of over 704 km/h (440 mph) could be reached easily. And with the D-12 prop speed increased by another 10 mph, and with GM-1 speeds in excess of 760 km/h (475 mph) were reached.
These are 1945 period leistung charts:
Fw-190 D-9 speeds with ETC-504
Fw-190 Dora Ta 152 speeds on B-4 fuel without ETC racks
Here's a list of German fighters which could easily do over 414 mph by 1944:
Bf-109 G-6/AS /-10/-14/-14/AS
Bf-109 K-4
Fw-190 A-5/-6/-7/-8/-9
Fw-190 D-9/-11/-12/-13
Ta 152 H-0/-1
As you can see wmaxt, pretty much each and every LW fighter in service by 44 could do over 414 mph, and most significantly so !
wmaxt said:Soren, You might be right at least partially but I can't find those numbers anywhere else for instance the Finnish flight manual gives the top speed of the Bf-109G6 at 640kph (398mph) @ 6,300 meters.
Your graphs would help a lot in I could read them but the only clear parts are the highlites and I have no way to interpret them, no offense intended.
Just as neither you nor I will accept the one test graph I have of the P-38L @ 442mph as absolute fact, I need more to accept these numbers.
Again, I don't feel you've tampered with the data or intentionally skewed it, I just need a bit more clear data before I accept it as absolute fact.
BTW: The P-38s racks/pylons were structural components of the aircraft and not removable in normal terms. Even Yippee, the show plane, kept its racks.
Soren said:Thats running at 1.42ata davparlr, by mid 1943 the FW-190 was running at 1.65ata.
FLYBOYJ said:A question here.....
We've discussed where the RAF tested the -190 with a "bad" engine. I could not find anywhere specifics on this. How was it being determined that this engine as not performing. In the air? During ground run-up? On any recip the manufacturer is going to set parameters for checking magnetos, manifold pressure and RPM on the ground. If it is determined that these parameters aren't being met during your ground run, you don't fly. I'd like to know the specifics behind this "bad running engine."
Soren said:The sparkplugs and the fuel used caused the rough running of the engine. Later the British made it run perfectly fine by changing its sparkplugs with some siemens type plugs taken from a crashed Do-217 and using different type fuel, unfortunately by this time no more tests were to be carried out with the a/c.
As Erich Brown later put it:
"It purred smoothly as it ran"