Interesting P-38 Comments

[FLYBOYJ]

That might explain a few things...

I wonder if anyone ever figured out if Faber's -190 was really derated. And weren't the A-3s initially restricted from flying over the channel?

 

[Soren]

No FLYBOYJ, only some BMW-801C engined aircraft were restricted to overland flights.

Here you go:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fw-190-vs-spit-p-51-p-47-a-4849-6.html#post188500

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ah, ok - thanks!

 

[wmaxt]

I have been doing some research and it seem that the Bf-109G-6 could do as high as 428mph.

I have also seen the Fw-190D-9 report at Spitfire performance. I can't Gage the chart Soren posted because the only thing readable is the highlit ed portions. You can see my confusion.

I have owned but do not now posses an official USAF identification plate for the P-38L at 442mph and have seen an AAF P-38L test report that gives it 442mph and a climb at 4.91min to 20,000ft, again I don't have it and cannot share it. With 104/150 fuel the J model P-38 was cleared for 75" by the AAF Material Command on March 16, 1944, and on the 8th AF on July 11, 1944 cleared it for 65". The 414mph shown at Spitfireperformance in the P-38L test, doesn't even reach 1,600hp and so is not a true top speed rating. The P-38L was cleared for 64" and 1,725hp by both Lockheed and Allison on the normal fuel though the AAF officially cleared it at 60" and 1,600hp on the normal fuel.

The Spitfireperformance site with the fuel info also shows a Lockheed est at 70" and 75" (and approx 1,900hp) for a top speed of 431mph. In all honesty and considering the wing as designed for climb I feel this is probably the P-38's top speed in real terms under those conditions. Even at 420mph it would be competitive throughout WWII, no aircraft was above 350mph after a 360deg turn where the fighting took place. In a bounce, top speed was determined by the stalk and dive in most cases against an aircraft at cruise speed.

Obsolete in 1944? The P-38L was still a better performer than many of its contemporaries. An argument can be made that the P-38 was obsolete when the P-51H and P-47N went into service but even then the P-38L had attributes that exceeded both with only top speed lagging significantly behind - but again piston engined aircraft were as a whole obsolete by that time.

wmaxt

 

[Soren]

*Sigh* Here we go again..

wmaxt, forget about the FW-190D-9 tests on Spitfireperformance.com cause they were achieved with early batch engines which underperformed quite significantly - Infact the very source from which the data was taken makes this very clear.

And here's the chart I posted before, again, however this time it is larger and no highlights have been added: (I hope it is clear enough for you now)


By Dietmar Hermann:
The pleasing shape of the D-9 suggested an excellent performance, and its pilots were not disappointed. Although there was little to choose between the Jumo 213 A and the BMW 801 in terms of power, the D-9 was 28 km/h faster than the A-8 at low level and 41 km/h faster at the maximum boost altitude of 6600m. The Fw 190 D-9's maximum speed was 685 km/h at 6600m. A program to increase boost, the so-called "Sonderaktion 1900 PS" (Special Action 1900 h.p.), was introduced before the aircraft entered service. As a result of this, emergency power was increased to 1900 h.p. at altitudes to 5000m. This was intended to give German pilots a performance advantage over Allied fighters at low level and thus improve the chances of survival for the Luftwaffe's many young pilots. What was even more important against the Allied bombers was the improved high altitude performance of the Jumo 213 A above maximum boost altitude. Unlike units equipped with the Fw 190 A, those with the Fw 190 D did not require an escort of Bf 109's.

Another performance-enhancing option was the MW 50 injection, which increased the performance of the standard Fw 190 D-9 to 702 km/h at 5700 meters, an improvement of 17 km/h. The graph on the following page (Click on thumbnail below) shows clearly the D-9's impressive performance. The Fw 190 D-9 had a phenomenal rate of climb with MW 50 injection. At low level the D-9 was capable of 22.5 m/sec, compared to 18.7 m/sec without MW 50. (BTW, this is from the same source as Spitfireperformance.com's data.)




And about the P-38L test data on Spitfireperformance.com, well whats wrong about it ? The results were achieved at 60" Hg, which is 1,530 BHP at SL just like it says. Here's the performance achieved running at 70" Hg: P-38J Performance Test

Obsolete in 1944? The P-38L was still a better performer than many of its contemporaries.

Could you perhaps point out some of these contemporaries ? I'm esp. interested in the ETO I must add.

An argument can be made that the P-38 was obsolete when the P-51H and P-47N went into service but even then the P-38L had attributes that exceeded both with only top speed lagging significantly behind

And exactly what attributes might that be when were talking fighter-aircraft ??

 

[syscom3]

By the end of 1944, the P38 was obsolescent in the ETO.

In the PTO, it's very long range capabilities still made it quite comparative, especially since the Japanese didnt have anything with the same speed and altitude capabilities.

 

[Soren]

In the PTO, it's very long range capabilities still made it quite comparative, especially since the Japanese didnt have anything with the same speed and altitude capabilities.

Except for the Ki-84 Hayate, J2M5 Raiden and N1K2-JA Shiden.

 

[syscom3]

Except for the Ki-84 Hayate, J2M5 Raiden and N1K2-JA Shiden.

None of them were a match for the P38.

P38 was still faster, faster climbing, carried heavier firepower, flew higher, flew further and was far stronger.

Aside from the Japanese fighters being more maneuverable, they were nothing for the P38 to fear.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Raiden and Shiden were way slower than the P-38 and were probably an even match for the F6F, the Hayate was the Japanese best, although still slower than the P-38, had excellent armament, (and I'm talking about the later models). Despite this they were still too little too late and the later models were being produced with non-strategic materials which only hindered their over-all operational capability....

 

[Soren]

All three Japanese planes were superior in maneuverability and most likely also climb-rate (I'm in doubt about the Shiden here), in speed they were either close to or superior to the P-38 at low altitude, at high altitude the P-38 was superior.

The Ki-84 Hayate actually proved faster than even the P-51H at low to medium altitude.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

All 3 had initial superior climb rates, the KI-84 was faster at lower altitudes but it's aileron stiffened up at 300 MPH. At higher altitudes the P-38L was faster. The Raiden had the same problem at about 325 MPH. The Shiden's climb performance really went to hell over 20,000 and was plagued with engine problems. It was maneuverable at lower altitudes and was probably the best armored Japenese fighter..

 

[wmaxt]

The P-38 more than held its own everywhere it flew. Its performance charteristics were exceeded in certain areas by other contemporary aircraft but even in those cases it still had some advantages. Not everyone liked the P-38 even of those who flew it but that can be said of every aircraft ever flown.

Comments made about the P-38:

Stienhoff, commander of the Sardining Luftwaffe contingent. " The lightnings clear superiority in speed and maneuverability was especially disconcerting." This quote is from his book Messerschmits Over Sicily via Planes and Pilots of WWII

Galland one of the finest fighter pilots ever confirmed that he couldn't shake a P-38 in a Fw-190D. From the book Top Guns by Brennan and Joe Foss.

Franz Stiegler JG27 " [P-38s] could turn inside us with ease and they could go from level flight to a climb insitainously. We lost quite a few pilots who tried an attack and then pull up. The P-38s were on them at once. They closed so quickly that there was little one could do except roll quickly and dive down for while the P-38 could turn inside us, it rolled very slowly through the first 5-10deg of bank". (JohnneyL provided this)

Art Heiden, 350hrs combat in a P-38 more than 20,000hrs in his career that lasted into the '90s. "Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better". Art was there and did it.

Art also flew the Mustang, in his words: "The P-51 was a new airplane and we were eager to fly it and were happy with it. It was so easy and comfortable to fly. The P-38had kept us on our toes and constantly busy (a rare observation most felt it was the other way around)-far more critical to fly. You never could relax in it. We were disappointed with the 51s rate of climb and concerned with reverse stick, especially if there was fuel was in the fuselage tank, a rash of rough engines from fouled plugs, and cracked heads which dumped coolant. With the 38 you could be at altitude before landfall over the continent, but with the 51 you still had a lot of climbing to go. The P-38 was an interceptor and if both engines were healthy, you could out climb any other airplane, and thats what wins dog fights. When you were in a dogfight below tree tops it is way more comfortable in a P-38 with its power and stall characteristics and for that matter at any altitude".
Arts comments can be found at
http://home.att.net/~ww2avaition/P-38-2.html

wmaxt

 

[wmaxt]

P-38J AAF test 47-1706-A
362mph @ 5,000ft - 394 @ 15,000ft 421 @ 25,800ft - ave climb 3750 to 20K
Later L models have similar specs and possibily more if higher boosts were used.

Japenese aircraft
Model - Speed @ Alt - Ave Climb
Ki-44 - 378 @ 17,000 - 3700ft/mn
Ki-61 - 362 @ 16,400ft - 2,380ft/mn
Ki-84 - 392 @ 21,325ft - 3790ft/mn
Ki-100 - 366 @ 19,700 - 2,750ft/mn
N1K1 - 363 @ 17,700ft - 2,510ft/mn
N1K2 - 371 @ 18400ft - 2,675ft/mn
J2M3 - 365 @ 17,900 - 3,570ft/mn

wmaxt

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm showing higher performance for the Frank....

"16,400 feet being attained in 5 minutes 54 seconds"

Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate

 

[syscom3]

Good find flyboy.

 

[Soren]

Stienhoff, commander of the Sardining Luftwaffe contingent. " The lightnings clear superiority in speed and maneuverability was especially disconcerting." This quote is from his book Messerschmits Over Sicily via Planes and Pilots of WWII

Thats not a comment made by Steinhoff wmaxt ! You're purposely twisting the original text from the website ! Only the the quotation marked words are from the book, Steinhoff never said any of the rest.

But to be fair Johannes Steinhoff actually did think of the P-38 as a great fighter, but he never expressed any difficulty in out-turning it, infact only the exact opposite, and he mostly flew gondola equipped 109's (And later the Me262) - but here's what he had to say about the P-38:
"The Lightning. It was fast, low profiled and a fantastic fighter, and a real danger when it was above you. It was only vulnerable if you were behind it, a little below and closing fast, or turning into it, but on the attack it was a tremendous aircraft. One shot me down from long range in 1944. "

The P-38 was a Boom Zoom fighter, as described by nearly every German pilot who met it in combat, fast in the dive and packing a mean punch but not maneuverable compared to the single engined fighters.

Galland one of the finest fighter pilots ever confirmed that he couldn't shake a P-38 in a Fw-190D. From the book Top Guns by Brennan and Joe Foss.

We've discussed this one before wmaxt, and it was just another one of Gallands jokes. Galland was infact not even present at the place where this incident supposedly occured.

By Adolf Galland:
"P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat. Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true. "

Franz Stiegler JG27 " [P-38s] could turn inside us with ease and they could go from level flight to a climb insitainously. We lost quite a few pilots who tried an attack and then pull up. The P-38s were on them at once. They closed so quickly that there was little one could do except roll quickly and dive down for while the P-38 could turn inside us, it rolled very slowly through the first 5-10deg of bank". (JohnneyL provided this)

Ha ha ha ! Stigler certainly never said that !

Where is this JhonneyL guy, cause I'd really like to know where he read/heard that ! He obviously hasn't read the other comments made by Stigler about Allied fighters.

Fact is German fighter pilots didn't fear the P-38 at all, it was infact considered no match by most pilots. Only the pilots who flew the heavily armed bomber-destroyers occasionally expressed difficulty fighting the P-38, as it could climb better than they could and always attacked from above.

 

[Jank]

Soren, as you seem to know quite a bit about how the Germans viewed their adversaries planes, do you have any information about what the Germans thought of the later model P-47's (paddle blade and water injection)?

How about P-51's?

 

[Soren]

The Thunderbolt was in general considered an inferior fighter by the Germans who described it as sluggish and un-maneuverable, esp. at low alt, but "never try to dive away from a Thunderbolt" the advice was nonetheless. But at high altitudes the Thunderbolt was a force to be reckoned with, esp. by the many pilots flying bomber-destroyers.

The P-51 was a feared aircraft at most altitudes, mostly because of the huge numbers in which appeared, but also because it almost always had a height advantage to begin with, and at high speed it wasn't sluggish in maneuvering compared to the 109, but neither was the P-47 for that matter.

However the P-51 and the P-47 were both considered inferior at low to mid altitude compared to the latest German fighters such as the Fw-190 Dora-9, A-9 and Bf-109 K-4, where'as they were considered completely inferior compared to the Ta 152H-1 and Me262.

But I'll dig out some comments for you Jank, from Hans Werner Lerche amongst others, a German test pilot who flew nearly every captured Allied fighter such as the P-38, P-51 and P-47 etc etc.

 

[Jank]

Thanks.

I suspect the test was not of the paddle bladed, water injection model. That's relevant as the climb rate increased by 400fpm to a respectable 3,180fpm at S/L.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

It still got Yamamoto. One of the best coup de grâce ever.