Introduction of pilot armor on the Hurricane and Spitfire

elbmc1969 · Dec 13, 2021

Hmm, yes. RJ Mitchell's "Schoolboy to Spitfire" notes the replacement of the "old and inefficient TR9 radio" with VHF in 1940-41.

From the RAF Signals Museum:

There was a need for increased frequency stability for the TR9. Frequency drift resulted from vibration and temperature changes during flight. In April 1937, crystal control was applied to the TR9; that was then designated the TR9C.
Later, to facilitate transmissions for Direction Finding (DF) purposes within a flight of aircraft while still allowing R/T contact to be maintained, a second frequency channel was provided on the TR9; that became the TR9D.
The proposed VHF set was to be built such that it would be physically interchangeable with the TR9, so that the aircraft fit could be changed from VHF to HF, and vice versa, at short notice!

So, yes, you're clearly right about most of those factors. I'm not saying that you're wrong about the others, only that I haven't dug up anything conclusive one way or the other.

My memory was clearly faulty on some items!

WARSPITER · Dec 14, 2021

It would be expected that all fighters had radios given that each squadron had a call sign and each plane had a a number preceded by the
call sign. Not much point having the numbers if there is no radio.

Airframes · Dec 14, 2021

Note that the Morse key, on the starboard side of the cockpit in the Spitfire and Hurricane, was used primarily for signalling with the amber I.D. lamp on the underside of the fuselage. I believe it could also be switched over to transmit a Morse message, via the radio, to the ground stations if needed, such as transmitting for a "fix", or when out of range of voice transmission.
I have never heard of RAF fighter squadrons having a radio only in the leader's aircraft - totally pointless - and RAF fighter squadrons, as previously noted in this thread, were fully radio equipped long before the outbreak of WW2.
However, I have seen reference to Luftwaffe fighter units having only the "leader's" aircraft in contact with ground stations, but in contact with other aircraft in the formation ( LW fighters used a different frequency to LW bombers, and therefore could not contact any formation they may be escorting), but this has been anecdotal, and can not therefore be fully verified.

MikeMeech · Dec 14, 2021

elbmc1969 said:
VHF radio was just being introduced and production was too slow to equip all of the Hurricanes and Spitfires. It simply took time to ramp up production of this new technology. With the ultra-rigid formations that were the core of Fighter Command doctrine, there was no need for more than one aircraft to have a radio. Was this practical? No. But then, the RAF was doing many, many things that were utterly impractical at the time.

Yes, RAF aircraft had W/T (Morse code) communications long before the Second World War, but that's not relevant here.

Most air forces went through a period where only squadron leaders or flight leaders had radios. Cost was one reason (VHF voice was really, really expensive) and supply constraints was another.

Hi
The British Air Defence system depended on Radio communication ground to air and air to air and had for some time, this is why all RAF fighters were equipped with radio. The problem during the BoB was that it was in the middle of changing from HF voice to VHF voice, as mentioned in Dowding's BoB Despatch:

However, the RAF had been using 'voice'systems for air defence from 1918, Cole & Cheesman in 'The Air Defence of Britain 1914-1918' has some pages on it, including pages 453-454:

It was used between the wars and continuously updated, although when looked back on it could be considered 'unreliable' or 'primitive' compared with the 'new' sets, at the time of use they were 'cutting edge'. A comment from 'On Silver Wings' by Lumsden & Thetford, p.129 reference use in the Bristol Bulldog:

From the same publication part of a drawing (p.95) showing the location of the radio in a Gloster Gamecock of the late 1920s:

At the outbreak of WW2 the UK had the most advanced air defence system in the world, which included the radio equipped fighters, it also had the most advanced air defence system in 1918 and arguably throughout the inter-war period, mainly because the government and the RAF invested in it.

Mike

IFollowRoads · Dec 14, 2021

buffnut453 said:
The October 1939 date was for longer-ranged VHF radios. The RAF had introduced HF radios in 1932-1933 and had experience operating them for over 6 years BEFORE the outbreak of WW2 in September 1939.

The short range of the HF sets was overcome by establishing repeater sites forward of the Sector Stations to ensure coverage.

So, no, my dates don't align with your anecdotal story. Again, please provide a credible source.

Finally, Fighter Command didn't have any trained night fighters in 1939 and they never operated night fighters in formation. And day fighters are not going to be flying formation at night...so even the morse option is not viable. Bottom line - you can't operate night fighters without radios, period.

Sorry I don't remember the names of the two RR mechanics who told us this, so I can't provide a "credible source."

buffnut453 · Dec 14, 2021

IFollowRoads said:
Sorry I don't remember the names of the two RR mechanics who told us this, so I can't provide a "credible source."

Then I think we can safely put to bed any notion that the RAF only provided radios for formation leaders at any time during WW2.

SaparotRob · Dec 14, 2021

Does heresay and conjecture count as credible sources?

MikeMeech · Dec 14, 2021

pbehn said:
It may have depended where you were, rolling out things like new radios would go where it was most needed, with priority for those in France and SE England. For those up north they probably would have a problem remembering if something was before or after war was declared, until the invasion of France, little happened.

Hi

This may not be correct, if Flt Lt K M Stoddart's comments are true, he was on No. 611 Sqn. (Spitfire I) based at RAF Digby in 12 Group which moved south, to Martlesham, to operate over Dunkirk. He states that his squadron were equipped with VHF Radio and this was removed and replaced by a HF Set for operations during the evacuation. Probably not for the reason he states but more likely so every squadron had a standardised communication system for the operation. Here is the text from 'Air Battle Dunkirk 26 May - 3 June 1940 by Norman Franks, page 64:

Mike

buffnut453 · Dec 14, 2021

SaparotRob said:
Does heresay and conjecture count as credible sources?

Not unless you add a pinch of rumour to the mix...then it's absolutely credible.

pbehn · Dec 14, 2021

MikeMeech said:
Hi

This may not be correct, if Flt Lt K M Stoddart's comments are true, he was on No. 611 Sqn. (Spitfire I) based at RAF Digby in 12 Group which moved south, to Martlesham, to operate over Dunkirk. He states that his squadron were equipped with VHF Radio and this was removed and replaced by a HF Set for operations during the evacuation. Probably not for the reason he states but more likely so every squadron had a standardised communication system for the operation. Here is the text from 'Air Battle Dunkirk 26 May - 3 June 1940 by Norman Franks, page 64:
View attachment 651586

Mike

I was thinking more of squadrons in training units when war was declared, a long time passed between the invasion of Poland and the fall of France.

Mike Williams · Dec 14, 2021

MikeMeech said:
Hi

This may not be correct, if Flt Lt K M Stoddart's comments are true, he was on No. 611 Sqn. (Spitfire I) based at RAF Digby in 12 Group which moved south, to Martlesham, to operate over Dunkirk. He states that his squadron were equipped with VHF Radio and this was removed and replaced by a HF Set for operations during the evacuation. Probably not for the reason he states but more likely so every squadron had a standardised communication system for the operation. Here is the text from 'Air Battle Dunkirk 26 May - 3 June 1940 by Norman Franks, page 64:
View attachment 651586

Mike

From 611 Squadron's Operations Record Book:

MikeMeech · Dec 14, 2021

Mike Williams said:
From 611 Squadron's Operations Record Book:View attachment 651588

Hi
That appears to confirm Stoddart's memories, thank you.
The book 'The Battle of Britain - The greatest battle in the history of air warfare' by Richard Townsend Bickers, has a fair summary of the voice procedures developed from 1936 for use in the radar directed system, on pages 35-37:

Mike

pbehn · Dec 14, 2021

MikeMeech said:
Hi
That appears to confirm Stoddart's memories, thank you.
The book 'The Battle of Britain - The greatest battle in the history of air warfare' by Richard Townsend Bickers, has a fair summary of the voice procedures developed from 1936 for use in the radar directed system, on pages 35-37:
View attachment 651590

View attachment 651591
View attachment 651592

Mike

Great post, its really difficult today to understand today how many problems they had to get over.

Greyman · Dec 14, 2021

Very interesting about the deWilde ammunition. I didn't think it had made it to the Squadrons at that time.

BiffF15 · Dec 14, 2021

SaparotRob said:
Does heresay and conjecture count as credible sources?

You're a trouble maker. We're going to get along well!

MikeMeech · Dec 15, 2021

Greyman said:
Very interesting about the deWilde ammunition. I didn't think it had made it to the Squadrons at that time.

Hi
Dowding's comments on gunnery during the BoB from his 'Despatch', including reference to 'de Wilde' ammunition:

Mike

nuuumannn · Dec 15, 2021

SaparotRob said:
Does heresay and conjecture count as credible sources?

Ummm, the "Internet", Wikipedia...

Introduction of pilot armor on the Hurricane and Spitfire

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