Dude, Iowa couldn't score any hits on a destroyer at 20miles. And if that is a poor comparison Iowa missed by like a lot. Yamato on the other hand scored a near miss and damaged white plains at 20miles. If it wasn't for the black smoke being emitted by a damaged boiler than she would have continued firing at white plains and possibly hit her.But how effective was Yamato's fire control radar?
During the Battle of Latte Gulf, USN Battleships ravaged the IJN's warships with accurate radar directed gunfire.
Iowa vs Yamato comparison
- Thread starter delcyros
- Start date
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
WTF are you even talking about, dude?
fubar57
General
You don't remember dude, Dave?
ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
Hey The Basket,
re "Could they (ie Japanese 14" AP) have gone through the armour of the Washington"
Short answer is yes.
Longer answer is probably yes, if the hit was close to perpendicular in the horizontal plane, and at fairly short range ~12,000 yds or less, and the round did not break up (too much) on impact. The reason I say if the round did not break up too much is that there is more than enough KE/in2 to allow the round to penetrate if it remained intact, and more than enough KE/in2 to allow large fragments to penetrate at shorter ranges.
re "Could they (ie Japanese 14" AP) have gone through the armour of the Washington"
Short answer is yes.
Longer answer is probably yes, if the hit was close to perpendicular in the horizontal plane, and at fairly short range ~12,000 yds or less, and the round did not break up (too much) on impact. The reason I say if the round did not break up too much is that there is more than enough KE/in2 to allow the round to penetrate if it remained intact, and more than enough KE/in2 to allow large fragments to penetrate at shorter ranges.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
What the fuck do you think I am talking about. This is a forum for Yamato vs Iowa comparison.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Where my car, Dude?
I mean do you have any tables for the Vickers 14 inch? Can't find any.
The thing about having a 2% hit probability is yo fire 50 shells. Sorted.
I mean do you have any tables for the Vickers 14 inch? Can't find any.
The thing about having a 2% hit probability is yo fire 50 shells. Sorted.
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
Maybe you should take a deep breath. It's only a forum.
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
For all the dudes and non-dudes out there ( my curmudgeon card is being reprinted) a few thoughts/factoids on battleship gunnery.
For the Iowa time of flight to 36,000yds was 66.13 seconds, decent angle was 38 degrees.
To 40,000 yds time of flight was 79.96 seconds, decent angle was 45 degrees 28 minutes.
Long range naval gunnery is basically trying to figure out (guess) where the target will be when the shells arrive. From the times above the target ship will have moved about 1/2 mile or more from when the guns were fired. Unless the target is an escort carrier that cannot make 20kts with a tail wind, in which case the distance the ship travels will be less.
using a action report against a destroyer to figure out performance against a large battleship is not comparing apples to apples. At 20 miles the destroyer is trying not to get hit and is not trying to return fire against the Battleship. If the destroyer captain has the IQ of belly button lint he is making radical changes in course to throw off the battleships predications. (guesses). If a battleship makes radical changes to it's own course it throws off it's own gunnery ( reduces accuracy).
Battleship is a much bigger target. About 2/3rds longer and nearly 3 times wider. With shells coming down at a steep angle width (beam) of the target ship is more important than height.
extremely good shooting for a battleship at such ranges would be a majority of it's shells in a 400yd diameter circle ( from memory, please check this) so even against a battleship that was not moving the majority of shells would miss.
For the Iowa time of flight to 36,000yds was 66.13 seconds, decent angle was 38 degrees.
To 40,000 yds time of flight was 79.96 seconds, decent angle was 45 degrees 28 minutes.
Long range naval gunnery is basically trying to figure out (guess) where the target will be when the shells arrive. From the times above the target ship will have moved about 1/2 mile or more from when the guns were fired. Unless the target is an escort carrier that cannot make 20kts with a tail wind, in which case the distance the ship travels will be less.
using a action report against a destroyer to figure out performance against a large battleship is not comparing apples to apples. At 20 miles the destroyer is trying not to get hit and is not trying to return fire against the Battleship. If the destroyer captain has the IQ of belly button lint he is making radical changes in course to throw off the battleships predications. (guesses). If a battleship makes radical changes to it's own course it throws off it's own gunnery ( reduces accuracy).
Battleship is a much bigger target. About 2/3rds longer and nearly 3 times wider. With shells coming down at a steep angle width (beam) of the target ship is more important than height.
extremely good shooting for a battleship at such ranges would be a majority of it's shells in a 400yd diameter circle ( from memory, please check this) so even against a battleship that was not moving the majority of shells would miss.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Discretion is the better part of valor. In November 1942, it was absolutely vital that the IJN be engaged regardless of the difficulties or problems. In 1944, it wasn't so vital. The carriers could hammer them during the day.
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
Yeah, pretty sure they actually did hammer 'em.
pinehilljoe
Staff Sergeant
True. ADM Lee won the battle on November 14 with a calm head and high level of training of the crew of Washington. But he also knew first hand that a surface night engagement can turn into a bar brawl in minutes by miscommunication or lack of communication and less than high levels of training.
Somewhat related, are there any good books on how ADM Cunningham fought the early Mediterranean battles? Were the engagements similar to the surface battles around Guadalcanal and Iron Bottom Sound?
I know dude, but sometimes you must reply the same way as the other one did. It worked didn't it.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
lmao - no, being a total tool didn't "work". I have real world stuff to take care of before taking time out to visit the interwebs.
First of all, the Iowa likely won't engage at 20 miles, it would wait for it's effective fire zone, which is within 16 miles. But if it did engage at max. range, it's radar fire control would figure a solution.
And your amazingly compact overview of the action during the Battle of Samar is...interesting.
That was why Iowa missed. Iowa could slowly close the range to 16miles, but all the while Yamato will be firing at her. And also
Immunity zones are also crucial
Like chill the fuck out… dude
Like seriously, you don't have to like be rude dude. Like can you debate in a civil manner?
Translation to adult speak. Everyone, please debate in a civil and constructive manner. Thank you.
ARTESH
Chief Master Sergeant
Well, actually this is an Aviation and Modeling forum, mainly covers WW2 era aviation and related things. However there is a WW2 General Section / subfurom for non Aviation stuff. Within that section, there is this single thread that comparisons two battleships from two different countries during WW2.
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
Printing something larger doesn't make it more correct.
And look at the destroyer action again, 60 rounds fired by two ships?
30 each or 40/20 or ????
Were the ships firing full salvos or half salvos?
Or not all turrets were firing?
You not only have range error you have bearing error.
And much like fast ships can dodge bombs dropped from medium altitudes (or higher) or turn away from torpedoes (comb the tracks) a destroyer can alter course changing range and/or bearing while the shells are in flight.
The furthest hit obtained by anybody's battleship in WW II on a moving ship was under 15 miles.
Look again at the times of flight for the Iowa's guns.
30,000yds 50.32 sec.
36,000yds 66.13 sec.
40,000yds 79.96 sec.
The 36,000yds may very well not be a misprint as the max range for the North Carolina's guns was just about 36,000yds and the time of flight was 79.80 sec.
Many war games and other evaluations make assumptions.
IN the Hood/Prince of Wales vs Bismarck action the PoW was taking water over the bow making her forward turret range finders useless. Her first two salvos were 3 gun salvos fired 10 seconds apart (only forward turrets were bearing on the target) Wiki says they were over by 1000 yards but that doesn't make a lot sense. The common reason for firing quick small salvos is to fire them at different ranges to confirm the range to target quicker. Like fire the 2nd salvo 500yds shorter than the first.
Shell form the PoW damaged/flooded a boiler room on the Bismarck causing slight loss of speed.
When the PoW returned home and was docked and unexploded shell was found in the wing compartments next to the aft boiler room. It had gone under the armored belt.
There is an awful lot of luck involved in naval engagements.
And look at the destroyer action again, 60 rounds fired by two ships?
30 each or 40/20 or ????
Were the ships firing full salvos or half salvos?
Or not all turrets were firing?
You not only have range error you have bearing error.
And much like fast ships can dodge bombs dropped from medium altitudes (or higher) or turn away from torpedoes (comb the tracks) a destroyer can alter course changing range and/or bearing while the shells are in flight.
The furthest hit obtained by anybody's battleship in WW II on a moving ship was under 15 miles.
Look again at the times of flight for the Iowa's guns.
30,000yds 50.32 sec.
36,000yds 66.13 sec.
40,000yds 79.96 sec.
The 36,000yds may very well not be a misprint as the max range for the North Carolina's guns was just about 36,000yds and the time of flight was 79.80 sec.
Many war games and other evaluations make assumptions.
IN the Hood/Prince of Wales vs Bismarck action the PoW was taking water over the bow making her forward turret range finders useless. Her first two salvos were 3 gun salvos fired 10 seconds apart (only forward turrets were bearing on the target) Wiki says they were over by 1000 yards but that doesn't make a lot sense. The common reason for firing quick small salvos is to fire them at different ranges to confirm the range to target quicker. Like fire the 2nd salvo 500yds shorter than the first.
Shell form the PoW damaged/flooded a boiler room on the Bismarck causing slight loss of speed.
When the PoW returned home and was docked and unexploded shell was found in the wing compartments next to the aft boiler room. It had gone under the armored belt.
There is an awful lot of luck involved in naval engagements.
I was just reading a detailed account of the whole 'Taffy 3' battle, and from the details of that engagement, it really sounds like the radar controlled guns are a huge advantage. A few destroyers, DEs and CVEs were able to maneuer and score telling hits on the Japanese surface fleet largely thanks to that fire control radar. They could shoot accurately from within smoke and squalls and while maneuvering, and meanwhile smoke did not conceal the IJN target. With the radar they could fire directly instead of sighting in volleys with colored dye etc.
In addition, excellent damage control training, discipline and methods (and equipment / design) enabled the American ships to withstand a huge amount of damage, whereas it seemed that sometimes the IJN ships went up in flames more easily.
Because of this, and the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, I would say that maybe the Iowa class had the edge. Prior to that time (late 1942) I give the edge to the Japanese due to the long lance and better night training. The Yamato was a bigger, badder ship but at this point I think with the MK 37 fire control radar etc., assuming the crew were adequately trained to use it and the commander understood how to exploit it, the US ships had the advantage.
In addition, excellent damage control training, discipline and methods (and equipment / design) enabled the American ships to withstand a huge amount of damage, whereas it seemed that sometimes the IJN ships went up in flames more easily.
Because of this, and the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, I would say that maybe the Iowa class had the edge. Prior to that time (late 1942) I give the edge to the Japanese due to the long lance and better night training. The Yamato was a bigger, badder ship but at this point I think with the MK 37 fire control radar etc., assuming the crew were adequately trained to use it and the commander understood how to exploit it, the US ships had the advantage.
