Iran Re-Manufacturing F-5 Fighters

MIflyer · Feb 12, 2019

Iran has began re-manufacturing the F-5's it bought from the US in 1979. Originally intended to be a stopgap until the country got F-16's the F-5's have been the backbone of Iran's fighter force. They are installing a new radar, a Chinese copy of an Italian unit.

Wurger · Feb 12, 2019

Interesting.

Capt. Vick · Feb 12, 2019

Don't they make a twin vertical stabilizer version.

MIflyer · Feb 12, 2019

Consider that Iran is re-manufacturing its F-5's, India is considering buying 400 new F-16's and the USAF is buying new F-15's. It looks a lot like the All Stealth Air Force approach has run up against cost constraints and the recognition that stealth is not a quality that is needed all that often.

There is something kinda silly about launching a $100M plus advanced stealth fighter to go intercept an airliner that has a drunk on board or to bomb people who don't even have an air force or any radars.

michaelmaltby · Feb 12, 2019

.... the F-35 is a force multiplier. It can enhance the capabilities of the F-15, F-16 and F-18 that it co-operates with ... the Israelis seem to have this down cold.

MIflyer · Feb 12, 2019

The F-117 was a Force Multiplier also, but they did not try to cram everything imaginable under the hood.

Tieleader · Feb 12, 2019

MIflyer said:
The F-117 was a Force Multiplier also, but they did nto try to cram everything imaginable under the hood.

Probably why the 117 worked the 35 doesn't...

Graeme · Feb 13, 2019

Capt. Vick said:
Don't they make a twin vertical stabilizer version.

The Saeqeh...

HESA Saeqeh - Wikipedia

MIflyer · Feb 13, 2019

The F-117 should never have been designated a "fighter." No air to air was in its design; the pilots trained on A-7D's. But the head of TAC said the 117 would be flown by the best fighter pilots in TAC and they would not want to fly anything designated with an "A."

Same thing with the F-111. The USAF version was supposed to only to air to ground and should have been either an A or a B. But the same twisted logic applied. The USN version was not supposed to dogfight but just launch missiles at very long ranges. The original concept was sort of a super-Skynight, and a modified A-6 was suggested after the F-111B was cancelled.

Fortunately no one was stupid enough to build air to air features into the F-117 just to justify the F designation.

By the way, the F-117 designation did not come from the USAF secretly continuing the F-100, F-102, F-103, F-104, F105, F-106, F-107, F-108, F-109, F-110, F-111 series. The program was known by the classified designation Project 117 and when it came time to print the manuals they called them F-117.

vikingBerserker · Feb 13, 2019

I love the F-5, its a shame the F-20 version never sold.

MIflyer · Feb 13, 2019

Northrop is a company that has had a unique experience. Their YF-17 originally was the company- financed replacement for their highly successful F-5 series, called the P-530 Cobra, and lost the competition to the F-16. The YF-17 essentially won the competition for the USN's F/A-18 but they had to partner with MCAIR to satisfy the Navy for a company with naval aircraft experience - and presumably more retired naval officers on its staff.

The Carter Admin was unwilling to sell F-16's and F-18's to Third World countries and encouraged Northrop to build the F-5G, later known as the F-20, for that market, using the F-18's engine. GD built the F-16/J-79 for that same market. Then the Reagan Admin said they would sell F-16's and F-18's to Third World countries, and that killed the F-18 and F-16/J-79 market. Northrop then tried to sell F-20's to the USAF, arguing they would be as good as an F-16 and they would guarantee not only the delivery price but the operating cost. The Air Force admitted that the F-20 was a fine airplane but at best no better than the F-16 and it made no sense to complcate things by acquiring another type, with all the associated logistics challenges. Northrop begged the USAF to buy just one squadron of F-20's so they could advertise that foreign countries could be flying a U.S. Air Force airplane but that did not go over well.

Meanwhile, the deal that Northrop had cut with MCAIR gave them the right to sell land-based versions of the F-18. Trouble was, nobody wanted the land based version; even if they lacked carriers all wanted the same thing the USN was flying. Talking to the MACAIR people when I spent a few days at the St Louis factory learning about the F-18 program, they put it very simple: "No one wants anything but a US military airplane." Even the foreign countries who had been flying the F-5 knew that they had a fighter that was not good enough for the USAF or USN and they were fed up with that.

So Northrop managed to lose the competition with the F-16 TWICE, once with the F-17 and once with the F-20. Then they lost the international competition for the F-5 replacement to the F-16 and also to their own airplane, the F-18! That has got to be some kind of a record.

And Northrop deserved better, given how outstanding their designs were.

sotaro · Feb 14, 2019

MIflyer said:
Northrop is a company that has had a unique experience. Their YF-17 originally was the company- financed replacement for their highly successful F-5 series, called the P-530 Cobra, and lost the competition to the F-16. The YF-17 essentially won the competition for the USN's F/A-18 but they had to partner with MCAIR to satisfy the Navy for a company with naval aircraft experience - and presumably more retired naval officers on its staff.

The Carter Admin was unwilling to sell F-16's and F-18's to Third World countries and encouraged Northrop to build the F-5G, later known as the F-20, for that market, using the F-18's engine. GD built the F-16/J-79 for that same market. Then the Reagan Admin said they would sell F-16's and F-18's to Third World countries, and that killed the F-18 and F-16/J-79 market. Northrop then tried to sell F-20's to the USAF, arguing they would be as good as an F-16 and they would guarantee not only the delivery price but the operating cost. The Air Force admitted that the F-20 was a fine airplane but at best no better than the F-16 and it made no sense to complcate things by acquiring another type, with all the associated logistics challenges. Northrop begged the USAF to buy just one squadron of F-20's so they could advertise that foreign countries could be flying a U.S. Air Force airplane but that did not go over well.

Meanwhile, the deal that Northrop had cut with MCAIR gave them the right to sell land-based versions of the F-18. Trouble was, nobody wanted the land based version; even if they lacked carriers all wanted the same thing the USN was flying. Talking to the MACAIR people when I spent a few days at the St Louis factory learning about the F-18 program, they put it very simple: "No one wants anything but a US military airplane." Even the foreign countries who had been flying the F-5 knew that they had a fighter that was not good enough for the USAF or USN and they were fed up with that.

So Northrop managed to lose the competition with the F-16 TWICE, once with the F-17 and once with the F-20. Then they lost the international competition for the F-5 replacement to the F-16 and also to their own airplane, the F-18! That has got to be some kind of a record.

And Northrop deserved better, given how outstanding their designs were.

Nice summary. As the decades have gone by, the names and news reports got tangled. Thanks

GreenKnight121 · Feb 14, 2019

Capt. Vick said:
Don't they make a twin vertical stabilizer version.

Graeme said:
The Saeqeh...
HESA Saeqeh - Wikipedia

The Saeqeh program, both iterations, has ended with only a small handfull converted, due to costs. This new modernization program is to also be applied to the 4-5 Saeqehs.

Elvis · Feb 14, 2019

vikingBerserker said:
I love the F-5, its a shame the F-20 version never sold.

You'd think if Iran was going to re-introduce the F-5, they'd upgrade to an F-20ish variant, to keep up with the times.
In a world spinning at approx. mach 2.5, mach 1.5 don't quite cut it....of course, it's my understanding that shooting at an F-5 is kind of akin to swatting at a gnat with a 6 lb. maul, so it does have that advantage.

Elvis

ARTESH · Apr 3, 2019

This never can fly!!! This is just for Show off and news. Maybe can fool ppl, but never a pilot. Making trash from trash.
These are 50 or more years old ! They have no chance in front of any new generation planes.

An Iranian pilot.

ARTESH · Apr 3, 2019

Several planes were built based on F5 , but no one touched runway. Just wasting of money, manpower and equipment. This is another dirty trick to gather some fans and delay regime overthrown !!!

Same pilot.

Elvis · Apr 3, 2019

Graeme said:
The Saeqeh...

HESA Saeqeh - Wikipedia

I clicked on the link and it got me thinking....so I opened the Northrup F-5 page, lined up the specs and compared them.
So please tell me, how does a plane that is only 4097 lbs. heavier than its predecessor have a (barely) slower top speed, despite the fact that the combined thrust for both engines is roughly twice that of the plane that it was based on?
...and the rate of climb is exactly the same?!…...wh-wh-what?!

Elvis

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