Is Having A Private Pilot's License Of Any Use?

gumbyk · Mar 29, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
Well if we just want to talk African Americans 100% white - 13% AA = 87% so the number is slightly off. And yes we haven't included other minorities.

2019 census figures are 76% (including Hispanic and Latino). U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: United States

MIflyer · Mar 29, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
I know for a fact that at the USAFA and at ROTC programs, if you have a PPL you can get into the IFT program easier

But that is what they want to change, to fix the "86% problem.".

FLYBOYJ · Mar 29, 2021

MIflyer said:
But that is what they want to change, to fix the "86% problem.".

Well we go full circle - PPL is a leg up, getting a PPL cost $, poor minority students apply for grants/ scholarships.

Bottom line - if we did everything to level the playing field we're never going to see much change from that 86%.

Dash119 · Mar 29, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
Well if we just want to talk African Americans 100% white - 13% AA = 87% so the number is slightly off. And yes we haven't included other minorities.

Your original statement:

FLYBOYJ said:
Maybe this disparity exists because so-called minorities don't have an interest in becoming USAF pilots? If you really want to break this down, 13% of the US population is African American. 86% of USAF pilot are white. Do the math!

This says 86% of USAF pilots are white, you seem to conclude that the remaining 14% must be African American. I'm not saying they are not, but that means that there are only African American and white USAF pilots. I take this statement to mean 86% of USAF pilots are white, therefore 14% must be non-white.
And while the exact demographics of the U.S. are very hard to break out by race, I don't think you will find many sources that say 86% of the U.S. population is white.

MIflyer · Mar 29, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
Bottom line - if we did everything to level the playing field we're never going to see much change from that 86%.

More important, whether we are able to affect that 86% number or not, what are we going to do to the quality of the aircrew when we deliberately exclude at least some of the best people? When I went into AFROTC the VN War was still going on, and while it should not have taken much thought to realize it was not going to continue much longer, the Air Force was still focused on acquiring pilots. Four years later things had changed and they inexplicably found themsleves with 500 more pilot applicants than they required and 500 fewer engineers than they needed. Strange, huh? They were dropping pilot applicants that they had already paid their tuition and commissioned as 2nd Lt's left and right, on any pretex they could come up with. To fill engineering positions they were trying all kinds of tricks, including looking at college transcripts and and deciding that a given class title sure sounded like an engineering course, so someone who had a degree in Bus Admin would fill the bill. Five years after I came on active duty they were actually paying engineers retention bonuses.

Generally speaking, when you focus on the final objective while ignoring the process required to get there you get the opposite result. The Space Shuttle Program was an example; designed to make manned spaceflight bulletproof, instead it killed it. Gun control is another; the cities with the strictest controls have the worst records. The Community Reinvestment Act was yet another; intended to increase the number of minorities owning their own homes, instead it devastated that group.

Dash119 · Mar 29, 2021

gumbyk said:
2019 census figures are 76% (including Hispanic and Latino). U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: United States

If you look a few lines down from the 76% line you will find this:

White alone, not Hispanic or Latino - 60%

So does the USAF 86% number of white pilots include Hispanics and Latinos? If not, then the disparity with the general population is even greater.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 29, 2021

Dash119 said:
If you look a few lines down from the 76% line you will find this:

White alone, not Hispanic or Latino - 60%

So does the USAF 86% number of white pilots include Hispanics and Latinos? If not, then the disparity with the general population is even greater.

It is and I mentioned the absence of other minorities. We're splitting hairs IMO - bottom line there will always be a minority disparity of pilots and officers in the US military if you look at populations and those who have an interest in serving in the military, let alone the desire to be a pilot.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 29, 2021

MIflyer said:
More important, whether we are able to affect that 86% number or not, what are we going to do to the quality of the aircrew when we deliberately exclude at least some of the best people?

And at the day that should be what matters. Others are trying to balance numbers and not considering population ratios and more importantly - INTEREST.

MIflyer · Mar 29, 2021

In the late 80's and the 1990's Air Force Space Command took over USAF space launch activity and asserted that since they were an Operational Command they should do things like an Operational Command and discouraged the traditional engineering approach. The reason was simple; they had lots of pilots who no longer had cockpits and missile crewmen who no longer had silos. In 1998-99 three out of four Titan IV missions at Cape Canaveral failed; every single failure was found to be preventable. A former CSAF was brought in to study the situation and summed things up simply, "We used to be able to do this mission but now we no longer can. You put the wrong people in charge. Fire the ones you have in there and go rehire the ones you fired."

If they think that percentages of races are a problem, over and above quality of the force, we once again have the wrong people in charge.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 29, 2021

MIflyer said:
In the late 80's and the 1990's Air Force Space Command took over USAF space launch activity and asserted that sicne they were an Operational Command they should do things like an Operational Command and discouraged the traditional engineering approach. They reason was simple; they had lost of pilots who no longer had cockpits and missile crewmen who no longer had silos. In 1998-99 three out of four Titan IV missions at Cape Canaveral failed; every single failure was found to be preventable. A former CSAF was brought in to study the situation and summed things up simply, "We used to be able to do this mission but now we no longer can. You put the wrong people in charge. Fire the ones you have in there and go rehire the ones you fired."

If they think that percentages of races are a problem, over and above quality of the force, we once again have the wrong people in charge.

Agree 100%, but sometimes (as you know) these directives are instituted by politicians or civilian civil servants who are clueless.

gumbyk · Mar 29, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
Agree 100%, but sometimes (as you know) these directives are instituted by politicians or civilian civil servants who are clueless.

There is plenty of research on how more diversity relates to better performing teams - Diversity in the Age of Terror: How Racial and Ethnic Diversity in the U.S. Intelligence Community Enhances National Security (famu.edu)

But, I fail to see how a degree makes you a better pilot. If the Air Force require you to have a degree for a post, then as the employer, they need to pay for it.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 29, 2021

gumbyk said:
There is plenty of research on how more diversity relates to better performing teams - Diversity in the Age of Terror: How Racial and Ethnic Diversity in the U.S. Intelligence Community Enhances National Security (famu.edu)

Oh agree 100% but it goes back to the original situation where you have a disproportional minority population not being factored into the disparity equation. And don't forget the "interest factor."

gumbyk said:
But, I fail to see how a degree makes you a better pilot. If the Air Force require you to have a degree for a post, then as the employer, they need to pay for it.

Agree, now in the US it's totally possible for an 18 year old to join the military, earn their degree as an enlistee (their degree is paid for), qualify for OCS and eventually a pilot's slot. In the US Navy when you have an enlistee become an officer, they are called "a Maverick." (Ironically!)

N4521U · Mar 29, 2021

My PPL-SEL was only for my self-aggrandizement and knowledge I could in fact Do It!
Any more doesn't one have to have a four digit IQ to operate one of these New things?

Capt. Vick · Mar 30, 2021

"so-called minorities" -

GrauGeist · Mar 30, 2021

I know a number of people who hold degrees and can't set the clock on their car's radio.
By the same token, there were quite a few NCOs that went through the pilot program in WWII and went on to accomplish great things (Chuck Yeager being one such example).

I seems to me, that having a PPL gives a candidate a "leg up" when entering the program.

Interestingly enough, I was VFR rated at the time when I went to join the military.
I passed the ASVAB with flying colors and was encouraged to enter the avionics field - however, I declined because I wanted to drive a tank!

Peter Gunn · Mar 30, 2021

The hell does race have to do with being a good pilot?

Silly me, I thought you had to have ability and talent to be a good fighter pilot.

MIflyer · Mar 30, 2021

GrauGeist said:
I know a number of people who hold degrees and can't set the clock on their car's radio.

I know of a highly experienced airline pilot who said, "The hardest thing about flying the Boeing 767 is setting the clock."

He had to fly a 767 from BWI Airport to Reagan National. After takeoff they discovered that the course and approach requirements had not already been programmed in and they had to do it manually. That flight took an hour and a half. The Wright brothers flew basically that same route in 1911 as part of a demo flight for the War Department and it took them only 45 minutes.

Unfortunately Air Force officers today have to do a lot more than operate machinery. I can recall one time when we had aircraft grounded that needed to go to Korea to respond to an attack there that left two US Army officers dead and one severely injured. A part I was working on was the problem with those airplanes. But I was told that my "primary job until completed" was to investigate the loss of a $27 flight jacket by an airman in another unit. It takes all kinds.

And thus the F-111 unit was not able to go to Korea.

special ed · Mar 30, 2021

The first three African American cadets appointed to USAFA reported June 1959 (Class of 1963). One was prior enlisted and had gone thru prep school. All three graduated. By the way, Sir Arthur Kingsford-Smith said the hardest thing about flying was the ground.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 30, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
In the US Navy when you have an enlistee become an officer, they are called "a Maverick." (Ironically!)

We called 'em "Mustangs" in the USAF. Some of the best officers I served under were former enlisted.

Capt. Vick · Mar 30, 2021

N4521U said:
My PPL-SEL was only for my self-aggrandizement and knowledge I could in fact Do It!

Same

Is Having A Private Pilot's License Of Any Use?

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