Is Spitfire relly superior to FW-190?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 17, 2005

I too believe the Dora was the best Axis aircraft out there but I do not understand how you can not say the P-38 was not in the same catagory, but put the Me-109G in there which was on the downward spiral.

plan_D · May 17, 2005

With the right pilot the P-38 could turn with just about anything out there, even if the pilot had to power back on one engine and power up on the other to make it turn. Do it wrong and you spin, do it right and you're on the inside of a Zero.

The Spitfire Mk.XIV was not not out-classed by the D-9. They were on an equal playing field when dogfighting.

The Fw-190A was superior to the Spitfire Mk.V but the Spitfire Mk.IX soon caught up to it.

The Tempest was an effective low-level fighter.

Glider · May 17, 2005

I admit to hearing about this stunt of putting the power on one and back on the other but find it hard to believe. once your in the turn you would have to equal it up almost instantly or you would wing over. Once equalled up you lose the advantage. I haven't flown any twins but this lacks all logic to me. It takes say one - two seconds to get into a bank and in that time your supposed to have
a) changed two power settings at the same time.
b) let one speed up and the other slow down (and they happen at different rates
c) get into the turn
d) equalise the power settings
e) Again let one run up and the other down
f) try to work out where the other guy has gone

All within two seconds.

Am I the only person in town who thinks this is a lot of wishful thinking? Or are there any people with twin experience who can tell me where I have got this badly wrong.

the lancaster kicks ass · May 17, 2005

don't worry Glider i'm with you........

plan_D · May 17, 2005

I imagine he didn't bank it around. He probably brought power down on one side and swung the wing around.

cheddar cheese · May 17, 2005

In any case the roll rate of the P-38 was pathetic, and in theory so was its turn rate. (Although some will dispute this)

Actually at higher speeds the P-38 had a phenomenally good roll rate.

FLYBOYJ · May 17, 2005

Glider said:
I admit to hearing about this stunt of putting the power on one and back on the other but find it hard to believe. once your in the turn you would have to equal it up almost instantly or you would wing over. Once equalled up you lose the advantage. I haven't flown any twins but this lacks all logic to me. It takes say one - two seconds to get into a bank and in that time your supposed to have
a) changed two power settings at the same time.
b) let one speed up and the other slow down (and they happen at different rates
c) get into the turn
d) equalise the power settings
e) Again let one run up and the other down
f) try to work out where the other guy has gone

All within two seconds.

Am I the only person in town who thinks this is a lot of wishful thinking? Or are there any people with twin experience who can tell me where I have got this badly wrong.

Believe it or not Glider, Dick Bong, Tom McGuire, and Gerry Johnson were a few pilots in the PTO who supposedly mastered this. What you saying needs to be accomplished isn't that difficult providing you practice it and stay proficient. I've flown twins and and say that it is possible (would I do it? HELL NO!).

I believe in another post there was mention of the P-38 going to "Combat Configuration." I think what this boiled down to is going to full power, full pitch, fuel tank X-fer (if required) charge guns and monitor gages. I think with a checklist this could take the average P-38 Joe about 8 seconds, in actual time maybe 3. Mind you I realize you're in a combat situation, so this amount of time could seem like an eternity.

Also with this in mind I believe it was also mentioned in another post that you couldn't do much with a P-38 on one engine. Tony LeVier performed numerous demonstrations where he would do slow rolls on one engine. Mind you I bet if 90% of USAAF who flew 38s' in WW2 attempted this, they would of died very quickly.

So bottom line, is it possible to make a P-38 turn inside an aircraft like a Zero or FW 190, Yes!, but only 5-10% of those who flew it during WW2 could!

plan_D · May 17, 2005

I'd say like 1-2% could do it.

lesofprimus · May 17, 2005

Those odds are probably pretty accurate....... Not all pilots used their aircraft as an extension of theirselves........

FLYBOYJ · May 17, 2005

plan_D said:
I'd say like 1-2% could do it.

OK - I'll agree, 2-3% (ya gotta exaggerate sometime!)

plan_D · May 17, 2005

I'm good with 2 -3%

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 17, 2005

Ahh good we have an agreement

lesofprimus · May 17, 2005

I think it applies to all aircraft and pilots.......

Some pilots found the Corsair a sonofabitch to fight, and some guys thought it was the Shiznitkabibble.......

My grandfather loved it, and felt completely unbeatable in it, even if it almost cut the top of his head off....

FLYBOYJ · May 17, 2005

lesofprimus said:
I think it applies to all aircraft and pilots.......

Some pilots found the Corsair a sonofabitch to fight, and some guys thought it was the Shiznitkabibble.......

My grandfather loved it, and felt completely unbeatable in it, even if it almost cut the top of his head off....

Yep, as I stated in other posts an old neighbor of mine flew in the ETO. Loved the P-38, didn't like the P-51, although he scored 3 kills in it.

Les, how did your grandfather almost have the top of his head cutoff?!?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 17, 2005

Yes that should be an interesting story.

Soren · May 17, 2005

lesofprimus said:
One very important thing wich is often forgotten is the reason why the Dora-9's tail section was extended from the "A" series. This was done for improving all-round maneuverability at high speeds, and it improved the 190's center of gravity aswell, futher improving horizontal maneuverability.

Click to expand...

It was extended because the nose was extended to allow the larger engine..........

Yes, as the center of gravity was moved The long tail section was for the things I mentioned above. (Wich includes the optimization of the center of gravity)

-------------------------------------------------------

As for the P-38 outturning a Zero, sure, at speeds above 300mph maby.

P-38J Wing loading *Loaded*: 290.88 kg/sq.m. Power-loading: 0.32 hp/kg.

And for comparison, the heaviest and clumsiest 109:

Bf-109 G-6R6 Wing-Loading *Normal Loaded*: 195 kg/sq.m. Power-Loading: 0.46 hp/kg.

The stats don't look good for the P-38 at all !

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 17, 2005

Stats dont prove anything though. Sorry but paper is not the same thing as actuall combat.

FLYBOYJ · May 17, 2005

Understand Soren that when you're determining aircraft turn performance with regards to wing loading, it's assumed that the turn is coordinated. These guys who flung these P-38s around by "jockying the engines" skid or slipped through the air with great forces to make their aircraft do what they wanted it to do. I once read that Tom McGuires crew chief stated that McGuire was always overstressing his aircraft, actually poping rivets and coming back from missions with all kind of structural damage from some of his maneuvers!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 17, 2005

You have to fly it like you stole it!

Soren · May 17, 2005

FLYBOYJ said:
Understand Soren that when you're determining aircraft turn performance with regards to wing loading, it's assumed that the turn is coordinated. These guys who flung these P-38s around by "jockying the engines" skid or slipped through the air with great forces to make their aircraft do what they wanted it to do. I once read that Tom McGuires crew chief stated that McGuire was always overstressing his aircraft, actually poping rivets and coming back from missions with all kind of structural damage from some of his maneuvers!

That might very well be true, but just by looking at the stats above it is clear that a P-38 would never outturn a Zero if both pilots were aware of each other.

The incidents where P-38's have outturned Zero's have been ones where the Zero pilot wasnt aware of the P-38's presence or whereabouts.

Lets not confuse claims with reality.

You have to fly it like you stole it!

How true !

Is Spitfire relly superior to FW-190?

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