Is the Helldiver better than the Helldiver?

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Quick from Wiki. Sorry for my poor translation from Italian.

April 4, 1949, Italy was among the twelve signatory nations of the Atlantic Pact. Participation in the Atlantic Pact is the premise for the United States to start supplying military material under the MDAP program with the aim of adapting and standardizing the war material of the nations making up the western alliance.

For the anti-submarine activity, the sale to Italy of the Curtiss SB2C-5 Helldiver is expected. For the same activity, the Italian Air Force had used only seaplanes such as the CANT Z.506, the CANT Z.501 and the Fiat RS14 during the past World War, in contrast to the aviation of the other western navies that used to the same purpose multi-seater single-engined aircraft embarked on aircraft carriers or multi-engine from land bases.

No longer in service in the U.S. Navy, the Curtiss aircraft is considered to be a transition aircraft useful for training new operational techniques for anti-submarine combat. The American administration decided to supply the Curtiss Helldivers on behalf of MDAP to Italy, France, Thailand and Greece.

The first twenty-four Curtiss Helldivers for the Air Force, whose designation was changed from SB2C-5 to SC2-5 eliminating the "Bomber" B in adherence to the Peace Treaty, still in force, which denied Italy the use of bombers, were carried by the aircraft carrier USS Mindoro (CVE-120) and landed in Brindisi in September 1950.

Temporarily assigned to the Flight School of Lecce, with these aircraft the 86th Antisom Group was established in December 1950, which was based in Grottaglie once the runway adaptation works and the construction of the necessary infrastructures were completed. As the pilots began to familiarize themselves with the new aircraft, the specialists were struggling with maintenance problems according to American standards, particularly stringent especially for the electronic equipment that the Helldiver was equipped with.

However, as early as April 1951, the 86th Group began operations abroad with the deployment of twelve Helldivers on the Faral Far airport in Malta following the naval team of Admiral Massimo Girosi, to operate with British naval forces.

Unfortunately, flight activity is marred by the first accidents, even fatal ones. On 11 January 1951 the Helldiver (MM M80020) stalled on landing, causing the death of the pilot, Lieutenant Enrico Guerrisi. On the following 12 February, the Helldiver (MM 80025) ended up off the runway, fortunately without consequences for the crew, but the aircraft suffered damages that had to be struck off.

Although marred by other accidents (the Helldiver MM 80032 on 22 June 1951, crashed after take-off causing the death of the pilot, Lieutenant Augusto Bertoli) the intense flight activity continued and the training level of pilots and specialists is such as to allow the participation in the interforce exercises scheduled for the summer of 1951, such as the one that took place from 8 to 19 July. Six Helldiver moved from Grottaglie to Hyères to participate in a joint maneuver between the Italian, French and American navies.

From 9 to 18 August eight Helldivers took to Catania to participate in the Bee Hive exercise with British and American ships. Furthermore, from 14 to 20 September, six Helldivers, from Grottaglie, intervene in support of the naval operations of the Italic 3 exercise.

The submarine research is carried out both on sight and using the AN / APS-4 radar, a real novelty for navigating personnel and specialists, whose screens are located in the rear passenger compartment under the control of the second crew member. During the exercises, hydrophone buoys are also used which are launched around the intercepted submarine, so as to constantly detect their movements.

The sale of sixteen additional Helldivers in the MDAP area between January and March 1952 allows the transfer of the 164th squadron to Catania-Fontanarossa, which constitutes the first nucleus of the 87th antisom group which was officially born on July 15, 1952 which the 165th squadron will join later. The activity is intense and consequently also the wear and tear of the aircraft and accidents.

As of January 26, 1953, the 86th group has twenty-three Helldivers in charge of which nine are efficient while the 87th has eleven, six of which are efficient.

Beginning in February 1953, the 87th group began the transition on the Lockeed PV-2 Harpoons, while the Catania airport was being adapted and an instrument room equipped with a Link-Trainer was set up for staff training. radar and RT. As the twin engines become available, the Helldivers are concentrated in the 86th group.

From the beginning of 1954 all Helldivers are concentrated in Grottaglie, while the 86th group also begins the transition on the Harpoons with which the 161st squadron is formed.

In April 1954, Helldiver's endowment amounted to thirty-two units that began to reach flight time limits.

However, operational activity continues. In 1954 eight S2C-5s and as many PV2s participated with fourteen ships and a submarine in the Vito 2 exercise in the waters of the Ionian Sea.

As they reach the limits of flight hours, the Helldivers are barred. In 1956, three aircraft were lost due to flight accidents, including fatalities.

With the arrival of the new Grumman S-2 Trackers, the Helldivers are relegated to the sole activity of towing for the anti-aircraft training of Navy and Army units. For this activity at the beginning of 1958, the 86th group has thirteen Helldiver survivors in charge with an average efficiency of seven aircraft.

The last Helldivers will be barred in early 1959.

The Helldivers of the Italian Navy

After the harsh conditions of the Peace Treaty], with the admission of Italy into the Atlantic Pact and the start by the United States of military aid to the Allied Nations (Mutual Defense Assistance Program), for the Navy the prospect is, as happened for France, the possibility of obtaining an aircraft carrier among those in surplus of the US Navy and finally manage to satisfy the desire for an autonomous air component, always denied for political reasons, due to a lack of resources and legislative constraints. In 1950, Defense Minister Randolfo Pacciardi sent the Chief of Staff of the Navy Admiral Emilio Ferreri to Washington to negotiate the sale of the units to be requested from the Americans, including two escort aircraft carriers and the related supply of boarded aircraft.

It was quickly realized that the management costs, leaving aside the political and legal difficulties, exceeded the possibilities of the Navy budget. However, the possibility of establishing a land-based aerial component with mainly naval and antisom tasks remained open.

In November 1950 a group of fifteen Navy officers, divided into three sections, was sent to training in the United States at the Naval Air Station of Corpus Christi, Texas, to obtain the pilot's license and certification for aircraft carriers. The training department is the VA-5 with Douglas Skyraiders aircraft. On the local Cabaniss Field airport, the U.S. Navy delivers two Curtiss SB2C-5 Helldivers to Italian pilots and specialists as the first equipment for a new Air Force department of the Italian Navy. The delivery is unofficial, outside the MDAP supply for the Air Force. The Italian personnel obtained the flight patent in the summer of 1952, in the following October then completed the advanced training and every time and made the passage on the Helldiver, already supplied to the 86th antisom group, which also includes take-offs from aircraft carriers and landing.

On the fuselages of the Helldivers, with the characteristic dark blue livery of the U.S. Navy, the stylized anchors painted on the national insignia and the emblem of the maritime republics on the drift stand out. The Helldivers retain the stop hook, removed instead on the specimens supplied to the Air Force and take the serial numbers I-01 and I-02. The qualified Navy officers are the Lieutenants Commanders Cottini and Volpe, the Second Lieutenant Paramithiotti, the Ensigns Saccardo, Cali, Valente.

On 10 November 1952 Volpe and Valente move the Helldivers to the Norfolk base and on 1 December aircraft and pilots are boarded on the aircraft carrier USS Midway (CV-41) bound for the Mediterranean.

While sailing, it is clear from the contradictory orders that come from the Marine General Staff, that in Italy the opposition to the creation of a Naval Aviation is still strong.

However, on December 19, 1952, off the coast of Marseille the two Helldivers took off from Midway CV with the escort of eight F9F-5 Panther of the VF-61 .

Near the island of Elba, at the limit of the Italian airspace, the escort leaves the two Helldivers, who without a flight plan and navigation aids, are forced to navigate on sight until they land on the Naples-Capodichino airport.

To avoid the seizure of the aircraft, completely unknown to the Italian aviation authorities, the two Navy pilots park them in the airport area reserved for the US administration, which actually owns the aircraft. The two Helldivers remain shelved on the Naples-Capodichino airport until, incorporated into the AMI, they received the serial numbers MM4698 and MM4699, being sold in August 1953 to the 86th group of Grottaglie.
 
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For carrier operations for the entire war, it might be useful to compare the SBD and SB2 C. Naval Combat Statistics for WWII state that the SBD, for the entire war, flew 6,048 total action sorties in which they dropped 2,467 tons of bombs on target. During that time, they shot down 31 bombers and 75 fighters.

The SB2 C didn't have as long of a service life, being introduced later, but flew 18,808 action sorties and dropped 10,994 tons of bombs on target. During that time, they shot down 13 bombers and 30 fighters.

To me, the SBD and SB2 C were not intended as aircraft destroyers, and the higher combat statistics for it merely reflect it's use as stop-gap fighter early in the war as we all know. What is little appreciated is that the SB2 C flew a little over 3 times the action sorties and dropped about 4.5 times and many tons of bombs on target as the SBD Dauntless.

So, while people might like the SBD, the SB2 C delivered the goods for the U.S. Navy during the war much better than the SBD, for the intended mission of dive-bombing. That is NOT to say the SBD wasn't a good aircraft, it was and is. I'd just like to give the SB2 C its due.

As an added aside, I don't hear anything about bad SB2 C flight characteristics from the Commemorative Air Force (Cactus Squadron) and Graham, Texas who operate the sole flying survivor.

 
Lucky, I would have expected the SBD-5 to have been in the fleet by mid-1943 with awareness of its introduction wide spread by aviation officers. Introduced in time for the Yorktown's first operation in the Fall of that year if it hadn't already gone to sea with the SB2C. If I understand correctly, the -5 was introduced in May of 1943. 1943 photo of production line attached. The film Hell Divers appears tp have been somewhat popular in Japan based upon a quote in a book by Ryan Wadle: "Selling Sea Power..."

Selling Sea Power

"...in October 1932, the [USN] learned via a New York times article that theatergoers in Japan had caused traffic jams in Tokyo to see the film Helldivers" entitled for Japanese release: "Bombing corps of the Pacific."
with internationally known film stars Clark Gable and Wallace Beery as draws. The films aerial sequences apparently had thrilled audiences"

Some of the sequences involving arresting gear were apparently censored but not very effectively. Having seen the film in the stone age during a day off from my work at a flint knapping factory, I have always believed that film was the source of the Japanese outcry on the bridge of the Akagi. I doubt the effect of such primitive films can be fully appreciated by modern, younger audiences used to sensational Special FX epics like the 2019 Midway.
 

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Lucky, I would have expected the SBD-5 to have been in the fleet by mid-1943 with awareness of its introduction wide spread by aviation officers. Introduced in time for the Yorktown's first operation in the Fall of that year if it hadn't already gone to sea with the SB2C. If I understand correctly, the -5 was introduced in May of 1943. 1943 photo of production line attached. The film Hell Divers appears tp have been somewhat popular in Japan based upon a quote in a book by Ryan Wadle: "Selling Sea Power..."

Selling Sea Power

"...in October 1932, the [USN] learned via a New York times article that theatergoers in Japan had caused traffic jams in Tokyo to see the film Helldivers" entitled for Japanese release: "Bombing corps of the Pacific."
with internationally known film stars Clark Gable and Wallace Beery as draws. The films aerial sequences apparently had thrilled audiences"

Some of the sequences involving arresting gear were apparently censored but not very effectively. Having seen the film in the stone age during a day off from my work at a flint knapping factory, I have always believed that film was the source of the Japanese outcry on the bridge of the Akagi. I doubt the effect of such primitive films can be fully appreciated by modern, younger audiences used to sensational Special FX epics like the 2019 Midway.
Wow. That's an amazing post. I read the "Helldivers!" from the Akagi's lookouts" in many books. I just thought they were quoting the original misquote. I recall various aircraft called Helldiver. Again, knowing I was the only aviation buff in the world, I let it slide. All the postings cleared up a lot between the two planes. HOWEVER, I would never have made any connection with that movie and the Japanese people. After all these years that quote is credible.
 
Compare the trailers form the 1931 film 'Hell Divers' against the 1986 film 'Top Gun' and 2020's 'Maverick':

Helldivers:



Top Gun (Cruise-1):



Personally, and please forgive my editorialization here, my admiration for Cruise is at such a level that I'd prefer to Watch Wallace Beery who I can barely tolerate. The not so endearing notion of a Top Gun 2 gives me agita.

But just to show the production of marketing trailers has become an even higher art than making the actual film, capable of making a silk purse out of sow's ear (Thank God for Madison Ave :rolleyes:) presenting Cruise-2:

 
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I too agree. Getting a bit off topic, remember Wallace Beery in a movie about WW 1 sub chasers?

You mean Thunder Afloat?

Thunder Afloat - Wikipedia

I am pretty sure I saw it years ago. I had built a model (like one in the photo, but this is done much better than mine which is long gone) of a WWI sub chaser and was thrilled to see one on screen.
 

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I've always inferred that Helldiver was a generic term for VB, dating from the 1930 Beery-Gable film "Hell Divers" with F8Cs, I believe. (One of the early talkies, BTW.)

Of the dozens of VB pilots I've known/met/interviewed, NONE preferred the SB2C as a dive bomber. A handful said the -4 and -5 were perhaps as good as, say, the SBD-5, but in some ways the late-model 2Cs were different aeroplanes. And they needed to be. Curtiss was a mess but it was a very well connected mess: witness the P40 remaining in production almost to the end of '44.

SOMEWHERE long ago, maybe even for my first book ('76), I found a comparative study of bombing CEPs for SBDs, SB2Cs and F4Us. The Corsair was surprisingly close to the SBD but I'd have to go thru a coupla three books for specifics. Anyway: Ed Heinemann said that the SBD's ailerons were the factory's pride and pilots' joy, hence its superiority in making precise corrections in the 30 seconds or so of a dive.
 
IIRC it was mentioned in the 'Shattered sword' that Japanese ship crews, once they determined that US SBDs managed to initiate their dives towards Kaga, were shouting 'Helldivers!!'.
I've read in "Shattered Sword" and other WWII books of Japanese personnel referring to dive bombers in general (including Aichi D3A) as "Hell Divers" (two words), an apparent reference to the well-known movie.
I tend to believe the multitude of first hand pilot comments about poor flight characteristics. This is an aircraft that should never have been approved for mass production.
The CO at the Naval Air Station I was sent to after "A" school was a WWII SB2C pilot who trained on the SBD, but got shuffled off at the last moment to a Helldiver squadron. When asked what he thought of the plane, he would go apoplectic, then be embarrassed at having been seen in that state by lowly enlisted personnel and send us packing. My barracks roommate, who worked in the Finance Office next to the CO and overheard the conversations, said that SBD trained pilots who got slap-dash, quickie, pre-deployment conversions to the Helldiver had a devastating fatality rate. Much higher than in actual combat. PTSD wasn't the thing back then, but I think the skipper had it.
Cheers,
Wes
 
I've always inferred that Helldiver was a generic term for VB, dating from the 1930 Beery-Gable film "Hell Divers" with F8Cs, I believe. (One of the early talkies, BTW.)

Yes, Barrett, but, like me, you are rapidly approaching fossil hood and can recall actually having seen the film, although as a TV rerun no doubt. :) The Early Show; perhaps or was that only a NYC metro area broadcast?
 
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can recall actually having seen the film, although as a TV rerun no doubt. :) The Early Show; perhaps or was that only a NYC metro area broadcast?
OMG, "The Early Show"! Used to get off our '52 Pontiac station wagon school bus at the farm across the valley that had the only TV in the neighborhood to watch "The Early Show". "Helldivers", "12 O'Clock High", "Flying Tigers", "Davy Crockett", "The Buccaneer", "Casablanca", "Thunder in the Sun", and on and on. Memory Lane on a hill farm in Vermont.
Cheers,
Wes
 
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USS Yorktown CV-10's Captain, Captain J. J. Clark, couldn't return to port fast enough to get rid of them and replace them with SBD-3's instead. I don't if it was him or someone else, who said that they wouldn't even use them as anchors....
After adding another gun, self sealing tanks, and other equipment it was heavier and slower than the already slow SBD-2.
Though still a good aircraft the SBD-3 was sometimes derisively called Speedy Three.
 
Oh my gosh I watched the Early Show too here in NY. The theme song was Syncopated Clock, right? Must have been a CBS affiliate. There was also Million Dollar Movie on a local station (WOR).
Loved watching those old war pictures with dad when he was home and laughed derisively at them.
 
Thanks for the information on these aircraft and cinema history as well!
The short answer is; yes. There's a lot of Helldivers. Take your pick.
The SBD is like mom's old Pontiac Tempest. The SB2C is like dad's old Cadillac.
The Tempest was smaller, carried fewer rowdy friends, didn't go as far but was fun to drive. The Caddy carried more rowdy friends farther but was a pig. Those are terms I can understand.
 
The SB2C is like dad's old Cadillac.
The Caddy carried more rowdy friends farther but was a pig.
Maybe your dad's old '53 Buick Roadmaster with the faulty brakes and the "occasional" power steering would be a better analogy. Not only a pig, but a treacherous one at that.
Cheers,
Wes
 

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