Italy v. England - Air to air (1 Viewer)

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What seems to be somewhat surpising is the performance claimed by these "5" series fighters considering that they are a good 200hp down on power from the SPitfire while carring a very impressive armament. Granted the German guns are lighter in weight but the ammunition loads are rather large.
People also tend to forget that the Italian DB 605s had 100 HP less than the original German engines.

One of my main intrests is Italian aircraft and aircraft engines and it's a rather sad story all in all: a lot of great designs but the problem was the industrial capacity, especially when it comes to engines. Almost all of the 900+ HP engines were copies from the British/Americans/French/German and all of these were inferior to the original both in power as in reliability.

Kris
 
Long ranged twin engined fighters didn't really exist apart from the Ro.57 and Ro.58 produced in very small quantities. There was no airbourne radar for AI duties and so no real night fighters apart from some Caproni-Vizzola F.5s and Fiat CR.42s. The only night fighter design I'm aware of is the Breda-Zappata BZ.303 which was a development of the CANT Z.1018 with Lichenstein radar and 8x20mm cannon.
The Italians did manage to develop an airborne radar called the Lepre. Never used operationally though...

Kris
 
People also tend to forget that the Italian DB 605s had 100 HP less than the original German engines.

One of my main intrests is Italian aircraft and aircraft engines and it's a rather sad story all in all: a lot of great designs but the problem was the industrial capacity, especially when it comes to engines. Almost all of the 900+ HP engines were copies from the British/Americans/French/German and all of these were inferior to the original both in power as in reliability.

Kris

italians were the same of germans, only they were limited to 1.30 ata, same that luftwaffe, the clear of 1.42 came too late for the Regia Aeronautica
 
It's my impression that the Italians would not have been able to get a higher ata in their RA 1050s because the higher pressure would need better alloys and the Italians were already hard pressed to produce the RA 1050 for that reason.

Was RA 1050 production continued after the armistice and during the German occupation. I believe it wasn't.

Kris
 
The Ali D'Italia booklet on the G.55 states that the power from the RA.1050 (DB 605) was limited to 1350hp because the rpm was limited to 2650rpm instead of the full 2800rpm setting. Equipped with later developments of the DB 605 giving up to 2000hp the performance of these aircraft would have been awesome.
 
Vincenzo, I think that's quite possible but I've never seen any material referring to Italian made DB 605s after 1943...
Perhaps it makes sense to stop production: Germany could produce them faster and with less manpower and material. Perhaps they felt that continuing the production over there simply was inefficient.

The Ali D'Italia booklet on the G.55 states that the power from the RA.1050 (DB 605) was limited to 1350hp because the rpm was limited to 2650rpm instead of the full 2800rpm setting. Equipped with later developments of the DB 605 giving up to 2000hp the performance of these aircraft would have been awesome.
I recall that story of the Re.2005 being tested with a German made engine and prop and achieving higher speed. Of course the given speed in that story is unlikely - we've been through that before - but it's clear that the 5 series had a lot of potential, as shown by the G.56 with a German engine.

For the moment I'm actually fascinated by the Re.2006: with the radiators moved to the wings it would have become the faster fighter in the axis inventory, and in fact of the world with a guaranteed speed of well over 700 kmh.
Kris
 
as i remember the fighter production, in occupied italy or RSI, was with "italian" engine
 
I recall that story of the Re.2005 being tested with a German made engine and prop and achieving higher speed. Of course the given speed in that story is unlikely - we've been through that before - but it's clear that the 5 series had a lot of potential, as shown by the G.56 with a German engine.

678km/h -> 700km/h doesn't strike me as unlikely given the 175hp extra and a larger more efficient prop. For this flight regime, power has a cubic relationship with speed, meaning that it is possible to estimate the speed with different power levels. V^3 = k * Power. We use the existing data for V=678 and P=1350hp to find k=61.35. Then we can find the likely speed with 1475hp, which is 698km/h, exactly in line with the reported results.

I like the wing radiators as well, when tested on Re.2001 MM.438 they gave a 70km/h increase in speed.
 
678km/h -> 700km/h doesn't strike me as unlikely given the 175hp extra and a larger more efficient prop. For this flight regime, power has a cubic relationship with speed, meaning that it is possible to estimate the speed with different power levels. V^3 = k * Power. We use the existing data for V=678 and P=1350hp to find k=61.35. Then we can find the likely speed with 1475hp, which is 698km/h, exactly in line with the reported results.

I like the wing radiators as well, when tested on Re.2001 MM.438 they gave a 70km/h increase in speed.
I'm glad you mentioned those wing radiators. What I've read is that it gave the Re.2001 a speed increase from 540 to 600 km/h. Not 70 but 60 but doesn't matter that much. I have never seen the primary documents on it so ...
But you know what I think, Admiral? The Re.2001 could actually fly 560 km/h not 540 km/h. So I think the speed increase was probably 40 km/h. This also seems much more logical. A 60 or 70 km/h increase by simply changing the radiators seems a bit off. So I'm going for the 40 km/h increase. Now I was thinking what this would have meant for the Re.2006. Do aerodynamical refinements matter more for a more powerful and faster aircraft ? Or less ? Or would it be the same?

A safe assumption would be to give the Re.2005 a maximum speed of 640 km/h with a DB 605 and VDM prop. If we look at the G.56 we can safely assume that the Re.2006 with chin radiator would have a maximum speed of at least 690 km/h. Even with the safe assumption of a let's say 30 km/h increase it would have given the Re.2006 a maximum speed of 720 km/h, faster than any prop fighter of 1944.

Oh yeah, the 678 km/h speed was achieved by diving and then levelling the aircraft. That does not count as a real maximum speed because it's not continuous. Also, you'll probably have those speed figures of the Re.2005 at different altitudes: it shows 678 km/h at IIRC 6000 m but also at SEA LEVEL which shows that the figures are bogus.

Kris
 
Italian fighters are notoriously underpowered when it comes to firepower, I disagree.

During the first part of WWII it is true. Hard to shoot something down with just two 12.7 gun machines :cry:

However, that changed with the last italian fighters. All the 5 series planes carried a very decent punch.

My impression is that by 1943 italians fighters had reached (in the design and technical area) at least parity with the english fighters, if not a net superiority.

The problems with italian fighters in 1943 were not because they were faulty products... it was just a new episode of "too few, too late"
 
And what about fighter tactics?

I know that they emphasised acrobatics, much in the same line as having fighter aircraft which were as manouvrable as possible. I have my doubts if training and tactics changed that much during the war.

As such, it's quite possible that the Italians still trained pilots with excellent flying abilities but not always the best tactics... just an assumption there...

Kris
 
George Beurling had a great deal of experience fighting the Italians.

Beurling, George: Bio

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run."
 
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Saetta, I am sure whoever posted that was only kidding. That is why they included the ;) smiley...
 
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Too late for the show ;)
September 1943: Italians have the 'series 5' fighters on hand, decent machines, in pretty low numbers. Speed circa 390-400 mph, fair climb punch, decent combat range.
RAF has Spitifires, most notably Mk.V, VIII, IX, and small number of XII. Mk.V is almost a match for Italians, while three other ones are better in speed climb. Mk.VIII has much better range than others from both sides. The Typhoon has most of it's bugs ironed out, so it's a good fighter by standards of second half of 1943.
RAF has the edge here, both in quality and in quantity of it's machines.
Luckily, the Germans conceded war is over back in 1940, choosing not to invest in a factory or two of DB 601s/605s. Just imagine IAR-80 with 601, or a real quantity of Italian fighters sporting 601/605 early enough, or Avia B-135/601 built for allies, or Ki-61 with healthy ~1400 HP in 1943... Or simply more 109s.
 
Oh man the mighty SLAAKMAN???? Dude get into the real world please. This is not about video games...

Now calm yourselves gentlemen, calm yourselves. No need to get kneejerk over-react here. Few appreciate the glory of Regia Aeronautica more than I do;
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