Italy v. England - Air to air
- Thread starter DAVIDICUS
- Start date
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Agreed I love that game!
red admiral
Senior Airman
- 479
- Mar 24, 2005
The Piaggio ones, the earlier ones at least, were based on the Gnome-Rhone Mistral series. They suffered a bit from reliability issues and were a larger diameter than the comparative Fiat A.74 (but gave more power). An interesting sub type was the two speed RC.100 supercharger used on the XI and XII (750 and 1000hp) which maintained power up at 10,000m. The P.XV and P.XXII were to be used for various large Piaggio designs, transatlantic airliner, high altitude bomber etc.
The Alfa-Romeo 135 Vortice was essentially a doubled up version of the A.126 which was itself a near copy of the Bristol Pegasus.
Not sure about the Fiat A.82, I seem to remember that it was meant to be plug compatible with the earlier models so it be simply retrofitted to existing G.50s and C.200s
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Yeah, that pretty much confirms my own research. Thanks Admiral!
It seems all of those powerful engines suffered from the same problem. A lack of suitable metals which I suppose were essential to the more demanding requirements of these more powerful engines.
Kris
It seems all of those powerful engines suffered from the same problem. A lack of suitable metals which I suppose were essential to the more demanding requirements of these more powerful engines.
Kris
HellToupee
Banned
- 90
- May 30, 2007
Yes there was, the Spitfire XII was rolling off the production lines in october 1942, but they wern't really pressed into service till 1943 or produced in large numbers due to per alt performance with the lack of 2 stage supercharger.
TenGunTerror
Airman
Italian fighters are notoriously underpowered when it comes to firepower, I disagree.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Hmmmmmm...........
G.55 Serie 0:
1 × 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 cannon, engine-mounted (250 rounds)
4 × 12.7 mm (.5 in) Breda-SAFAT machine guns, two in the upper engine cowling, two in the lower cowling/wing roots (300 rpg)
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Macchi MC.205V
2 x 12.7mm in the upper engine cowling
2 x 20mm cannons in the wings.
2 x 12.7mm in the upper engine cowling
2 x 20mm cannons in the wings.
parsifal
Colonel
''
I confess that I have not read all the posts to this thread. However,, in reference to the G-55, which would not have entered large scale service until 1944, you have to compare apples to apples. Whilst the heat they were packing was impressive compared to the early war Italian fighters, compared to the 1944 RAF fighters they were actually rather light in armament.. A Tempest for example was carrying 4 x 20mm Hispano Cannon. The Spitfire was more lightly armed with generally 2 x 20mm and 2 x 0.5 in MG.
There is one area that the italians definately lagged and that was in the area of the long ranged twin engined fighters, particulalry the Long Range Twin Night Fighters. In this the British held a clear advantage with their Mosquitoes and Beafighters. I dont believe the Italians had anything in their inventory that could compare to these aircraft
lingo
Airman 1st Class
It was a trick question all along! The English were not involved in World War 2. They did not have an Air Force and even to this day there is no English Air Force. There hasn't been an English Army for hundreds of years - and the same goes for the Navy.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Commander Thatch said something to the effect when some of his men complained about the Wildcat's 4 guns in lieu of 6 - "you can't hit anything with 4 guns, what makes you think you'll do better with two more."
red admiral
Senior Airman
- 479
- Mar 24, 2005
Italy entered the war with 2x12.7mm as the main armament, which wasn't that bad compared to contemporaries. These aircraft were then upgraded with later series including 7.7mm or 20mm wing guns as well. The 5 series fighters introduced in 1943 had a much greater armament, typically with 3x20mm cannon and 2x12.7mm machine guns and very large ammunition capacities (400,250rpg in C.205). Later designs (e.g. C.207) had 4x20mm in the wings.
Long ranged twin engined fighters didn't really exist apart from the Ro.57 and Ro.58 produced in very small quantities. There was no airbourne radar for AI duties and so no real night fighters apart from some Caproni-Vizzola F.5s and Fiat CR.42s. The only night fighter design I'm aware of is the Breda-Zappata BZ.303 which was a development of the CANT Z.1018 with Lichenstein radar and 8x20mm cannon.
It's worth noting that development of Italian types essentially ended in mid 1943.
Long ranged twin engined fighters didn't really exist apart from the Ro.57 and Ro.58 produced in very small quantities. There was no airbourne radar for AI duties and so no real night fighters apart from some Caproni-Vizzola F.5s and Fiat CR.42s. The only night fighter design I'm aware of is the Breda-Zappata BZ.303 which was a development of the CANT Z.1018 with Lichenstein radar and 8x20mm cannon.
It's worth noting that development of Italian types essentially ended in mid 1943.
- Thread starter
- #173
Parsifal, the posted question was:
At the point in time when Italy surrendered in September of 1943, did England have combat operational fighter aircraft that were superior to the best combat operational aircraft of Italy?
So what were the very best British fighters in use in September 1943 and what were the very best Italian fighters in use in September 1943.
In examining these fighters on a one to one basis, were the British models superior or were the Italian models superior?
At the point in time when Italy surrendered in September of 1943, did England have combat operational fighter aircraft that were superior to the best combat operational aircraft of Italy?
So what were the very best British fighters in use in September 1943 and what were the very best Italian fighters in use in September 1943.
In examining these fighters on a one to one basis, were the British models superior or were the Italian models superior?
- Thread starter
- #175
- Thread starter
- #177
Glider
Captain
The normal weapon load of the G55 was 3 x 20mm ( 1 x 380rds 2 x 200rds) and 2 x HMG (300rpg) which is equal to most aircraft and more than most.
Shortround6
Major General
I would note that the Italian Aircraft engines did offer fair power for weight which may have been part of the problem later on. They were light in relation to displacement which is OK if you are using low octane fuel and moderate boost and RPM. It doesn't leave much room to grow or increase either BMEP or RPM without a major redesign.
Fiat AS6 engine was a non-starter for WW II development. Half an AS6 would have been 25.12 liters which is a bit small especially with 87 octane fuel. Engine construction was seperate cylinder with welded on sheet steel water jackets. A lack of strength compared to cast block construction. While this type of construction was commen in the 1920s it had faded from use in the aircraft field by WW II.
Could the Italians make large aluminium castings of the type required for V-12 engine construction in quantity?
What seems to be somewhat surpising is the performance claimed by these "5" series fighters considering that they are a good 200hp down on power from the SPitfire while carring a very impressive armament. Granted the German guns are lighter in weight but the ammunition loads are rather large.
Fiat AS6 engine was a non-starter for WW II development. Half an AS6 would have been 25.12 liters which is a bit small especially with 87 octane fuel. Engine construction was seperate cylinder with welded on sheet steel water jackets. A lack of strength compared to cast block construction. While this type of construction was commen in the 1920s it had faded from use in the aircraft field by WW II.
Could the Italians make large aluminium castings of the type required for V-12 engine construction in quantity?
What seems to be somewhat surpising is the performance claimed by these "5" series fighters considering that they are a good 200hp down on power from the SPitfire while carring a very impressive armament. Granted the German guns are lighter in weight but the ammunition loads are rather large.
- Thread starter
- #180
G55 - Aircraft History
In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.
In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.
The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.
The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.
The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.
As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.
The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.
In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.
In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.
The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.
The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.
The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.
As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.
The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.
