Italy v. England - Air to air

[pbfoot]

as far as i can see he shot down no biplanes but 4 x 190s . 17x 109 8 maachi 202 and 2xju 88 and was probably the best deflection shot of ww2 he was kicked out of rcaf in late 44

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Nonskimmer said, "Shot his head right off with a cannon shell, I read somewhere."

That was actually the pilot of a Cant bomber. The plane actually made it back to base even with its engine taken out. The bomber aimer/observer brought it back!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Uh...yeah...I knew that... :-"

Yes, you're right. I read that in a bio not five minutes ago. Oops.

 

[pbfoot]

i was given to understand it was a maachi 202 and his report read fired 4 rounds thru cockpit and the armorers counted the rounds used and it coincided

 

[Nonskimmer]

Ah. I just reread a couple of different bios. He'd been haunted (supposedly) by a dream in which he blew off an Italian fighter pilot's head with a cannon shot. That's what I was thinking of earlier.

 

[mosquitoman]

The 5 Series weren't available in enough numbers though

 

[DAVIDICUS]

pbfoot said, "i was given to understand it was a maachi 202 and his report read fired 4 rounds thru cockpit and the armorers counted the rounds used and it coincided"

I am relying on the account as set out in the website I referenced. That sortie, as the story goes, clearly involved more than four rounds being fired.

"On July 6 he got to put into practice what he had learned when 8 Spits were sent to intercept 3 Italian Cant bombers heading for Malta. They were escorted by no less than 30 Macchi 200 fighters. Beurling led the assault diving straight through the Macchi formations and pulling up to fire on a big, Cant bomber. His first burst hit the pilot blowing off his head, the second took out an engine. Despite the damage, it made it back to base in Sicily flown by the bomber aimer/observer. Beurling turned quickly and fired directly into an Italian fighter, knocking it down in flames. He lined up another Italian fighter but it dove sharply to get away. Beurling followed all the way from 20,000 feet to 5,000. The Italian had no choice but to pull up and George caught him square in his sights. The Macchi blew up."

Perhaps he had a penchant for blowing off pilots heads and you are referring to a different event.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Well, they didn't call the man "Screwball" for nothing.

 

[mosquitoman]

He must have been mental!

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Ninskimmer, is that gentleman on your avatar a relative? What's the story?

 

[Nonskimmer]

Ninskimmer, is that gentleman on your avatar a relative? What's the story?

My grandfather. He flew Lancasters with RCAF 419 sqn. for a time. He was in Wellingtons before that.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

How interesting that you have a familial connection to the subject matter of this forum.

On another note, it's odd to think that Lanc dreams of being your grandfather. Actually, it conjures up rather disturbing imagery don't you think?

 

[Nonskimmer]

I try not to dwell on that.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

So which combat operational model of Spitfire was the very best at September of 1943?

I wish we could get some test data on the Series 5 fighters. I have read that the Germans played around with them quite a bit and were quite impressed.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

To my Canadian friends - Could Buelring have been from Newfoundland?!? Just kidding, I know Scewball was from outside of Montreal. I think the RAF was way better than Italy at this time, although the Italians did have some good pilots.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

On the subject of tests, I came across this.


In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.

 

[pbfoot]

http://www.constable.ca/beurling.htm
excellent site on beurling and i should probably stand corrected

 

[FLYBOYJ]

On the subject of tests, I came across this.


In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.

I think you hit the nail on the head on this - standardization of the Axis aircraft production Its hard to fight a war with 10 different relatively "good" fighter aircraft, produce them in numbers and keep them supplied. Production manhours are always watched during any aircraft production and that could make or brake a successful design.

 

[Nonskimmer]

That's quite the write up you've found there, DAVI. Really quite interesting. To be truthful, I'd never taken enough of an interest in Italian fighters to do much reading on them, but I must say that's beginning to change. I'd known of some German interest in later model Italian designs, but that's really about it.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I've been reading some other WWII aviation forums. I have read more than one claim that the Reichsluftfahrtministerium Ministry of Aviation was contemplating the Fiat G.55 as a replacement for the Messerschmitt ME-109.

From: http://www.aldini.it/re2005/history.htm (I'm not posting this as relaible evidence that the Saggitario was superior to the Spitfire ... but we all know it was. )

In May of 1943, the first Sagittarios entered service with the Regia Aeronautica. The first prototype and several of the zero series aircraft were used operationally by the 362a Squadriglia, 22o Gruppo at Naples-Capodichino starting in May 1943, being used to defend Rome and Naples. The squadron had developed a rather daring method of attacking Allied B-17s which involved diving head-on with all guns blazing, then flipping the aircraft over on its back and diving away at the last minute.The Reggiane had good behaviour in close dogfight and , according to General Minguzzi, who flew both Re 2005 and Spitfire, was even better than the Spit in tight turns and handling.The operative life of the Sagittario was concluded by the Armistice , that came in the September 1943.