It's 1940 and you're....

[Freebird]

Iceland would have two alternatives, allow the Allies to use its facilities or starve, Simple

Then the Allies have use of the airfields that can be upgraded and control of a large amount of the Atlantic.

True enough Glider, although the importance will diminish quite a bit with the convoys routing through Azores instead of the North Atlantic. A better route too, IMO the seas are calmer, allowing for more use of aircraft, it also is easier on the crews, and not so freezing. Did you serve on a ship Glider?

I should comment its all so bloody easy for us to sit here and say "patrol there", but for long term sustainablity the N. Atlantic would wear down the crews much more than a route across the "horse latitudes" {doldrums}


Tim I'm not sure that the US was capable of sending much to Iceland before May, either from a political or military point of view.

We will probably have to give a rough estimate of the total # of regiments squadrons available to Britain, and decide how much could be sent overseas. They were pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel for equipped troops. Now today, you I know that Germany didn't really have a chance to invade after Nov during the winter of 40/41, but the British were very reluctant to send much out, they didn't want to take any chances

 

[Freebird]

. Did you serve on a ship Glider?

I think you just answered my question..

On HMS Tiger after a 6in shoot we went back to the mess deck and everything that could be broken was broken.

Where did you patrol on "Tiger"? Atlantic or Med? I've sailed across the Pacific, but not in the Atlantic, but I have seen how nasty the weather can get there too. I'm reading about the British Canadian "sloops", it must have been quite an unpleasant duty on the Iceland route during the winter.

 

[Glider]

I served on HMS Tiger and had some time on the Hermes and Ark Royal. On the Tiger it was the Med and then home stopping at Gibraltar. The Americans thought she was a quaint ship a real museum piece and its hard not to disagree with them. However on the last part across the Bay of Biscay we did a last firing exercise. As it was supposed to be the last shoot before she was paid off the Captain upped the guns to the maximum designed firing rate. 20rpm per gun. She was still pretty impressive, getting a direct hit on the aicraft target with her second shell. In peace time they normally reduced the rate to around 15 rpm to save the barrel from overheating.
What wasn't impressive was her reliability, breaking down completely in the Bay of Biscay and drifting sideways on to the sea. Also she was very bow heavy having had the rear gun turret removed for a Helicopter Hanger. In a Gale 8 the bow of the ship was going up and down approx 30ft. As our mess was around the base of the turret ours was the furthest forward mess on the ship and I was as sick as a dog.
The nearest thing to a WW2 sloop in the RN at the time were probably the 'Ton' class minsweepers. I was on a Sea King that flew fresh bread and other hot food out to one of these as it was going across the Bay, she was rolling like you wouldn't believe, we really felt for the crew.

 

[Freebird]

I served on HMS Tiger and had some time on the Hermes and Ark Royal. On the Tiger it was the Med and then home stopping at Gibraltar.
What wasn't impressive was her reliability, breaking down completely in the Bay of Biscay and drifting sideways on to the sea. Also she was very bow heavy having had the rear gun turret removed for a Helicopter Hanger. In a Gale 8 the bow of the ship was going up and down approx 30ft. As our mess was around the base of the turret ours was the furthest forward mess on the ship and I was as sick as a dog.
The nearest thing to a WW2 sloop in the RN at the time were probably the 'Ton' class minsweepers. I was on a Sea King that flew fresh bread and other hot food out to one of these as it was going across the Bay, she was rolling like you wouldn't believe, we really felt for the crew.

I have just read a sailor's account from the "Repulse", from 1939-1941, it was pretty hard going even on the big ships, they often had action stations for days at a time in the N. Atlantic, and some of the smaller guns were open, gun crews exposed to the elements.

All in all, its a shame that they didn't push more quickly to use the Azores, {which was an Allied airbase from 1943} the central crossing is much better in so many ways than the Iceland route

The Americans thought she was a quaint ship a real museum piece and its hard not to disagree with them.

Seems like alot of the British eqipment in WWII was "museum pieces", the BEF arrived in france with some vehicles stencilled "Not for use in Combat", by the end of 1940 the primary fighter in the Med was the Gladiator!

 

[Soren]

Freebird, the Danish king (Christian X) was not in exile, he lived in Denmark throughout the entire war.

The same goes for the Belgian king (Leopold III) who stayed in Belgium throughout the war in house arrest.

 

[timshatz]

Freebird, I think the main goal of the British fleet in the mid-Atlantic is to hunt down and destroy the Italian Fleet in the Atlantic. They are exposed, with only BB, one or two Italian or Spanish CVLs and a Pocket BB. That last one is more of a problem than a help. It limits the top speed to around 27-28kts. With the coming together of the Gibraltar Fleet and the Atlantic Fleet, they are somewhat boxed in. They are out in the open, with limited air cover and limited fighting power. Plus, they are not long range ships.

Any raiders that get picked up by these forces are just a bonus. I think the CLs stay home for the most part. They are not big enough to make a major diffence in a big slugging match and are more than enough to handle a raider (provided they don't go in dumb like the Sydney).

With all that tonnage moving around in the Atlantic, a raider is not really a big worry at this point. Truthfully, a smart raider Capitan will head to less crowded waters, maybe the IO or the Pacific. Much like the German Raiders did. To stick around in the Atlantic, you've gotta be able to slug it out with somebody. I don't see any of the raiders built with that in mind, not the commerce raiders. Ok if you are a pocket BC, but with all that air power buzzing around, it's even hazardous for them!

As for the Bait Force compaining about being Bait, too bad. Shoulda joined the Army! Now make some noise with your radios and attract an Italian BB or two.

Moving the convoy routes west 600 miles should be fine. I'm thinking of the hassles a PB would have to deal with. That is farther away, as noted, there is a lot of warships running around out there. Going to make life tough for anyone going after a convoy. Look at the Germans going after the PQ convoys, and that was off a friendly coast with no enemy bases in site. Tough for them. Also, moving it west will make life harder for air search. And the Axis desperately needs air search.

Agree with you on Mediera. Too far from the Azores to worry too much about losing. Have to hold the Azores though. Then again, it is hard for the Axis to get enough power onto Mediera and not be exposed. One thing for sure, whoever holds that rock is going to get a lot of visits from the other side's air force. Not going to be a popular place. Think Malta.

 

[Freebird]

Freebird, the Danish king (Christian X) was not in exile, he lived in Denmark throughout the entire war.

The same goes for the Belgian king (Leopold III) who stayed in Belgium throughout the war in house arrest.

Hmm I stand corrected. The Danish government was in exile though if I am correct? If Tim has the US taking over from the British in Iceland, I think it must have been controlled by the Allies from May/June of 40. {although probably only with a couple of weak battalions}

Freebird, I think the main goal of the British fleet in the mid-Atlantic is to hunt down and destroy the Italian Fleet in the Atlantic. They are exposed, with only BB, one or two Italian or Spanish CVLs and a Pocket BB. That last one is more of a problem than a help. It limits the top speed to around 27-28kts. With the coming together of the Gibraltar Fleet and the Atlantic Fleet, they are somewhat boxed in. They are out in the open, with limited air cover and limited fighting power. Plus, they are not long range ships.

I think if we set the Axis at 2/3 of the size of the British fleet that gives the Germans the Bismarck BB, a CV, 2 "BD's" {old dreadnought battleships like "Royal Oak"} The joint Spanish/Italian fleet has Littorio BB, a CV, 4 BD's. The other pocket BB's, BC's, CVL's cruisers will probably do as you say and head for the South Atlantic or Indian Ocean, making the British split up their fleet. They might split the faster units off, and send the PB by itself to the Indian or Pacific as you say.

Any raiders that get picked up by these forces are just a bonus. I think the CLs stay home for the most part. They are not big enough to make a major diffence in a big slugging match and are more than enough to handle a raider (provided they don't go in dumb like the Sydney).

With all that tonnage moving around in the Atlantic, a raider is not really a big worry at this point. Truthfully, a smart raider Capitan will head to less crowded waters, maybe the IO or the Pacific. Much like the German Raiders did. To stick around in the Atlantic, you've gotta be able to slug it out with somebody. I don't see any of the raiders built with that in mind, not the commerce raiders. Ok if you are a pocket BC, but with all that air power buzzing around, it's even hazardous for them!

Yes, but keep in mind that the CL's were a vital part of the combat against Spee. if the 2 CA's meet 2 German CA's it might end up with the British on the short end, as the German CA's are about 50% bigger. But throw in a couple of CL's and they can hit the raider from several sides {as happened with Exeter co}

As for the Bait Force compaining about being Bait, too bad. Shoulda joined the Army! Now make some noise with your radios and attract an Italian BB or two.

My Grandfather was in the Army, survived to have kids {wounded in the fight against the b****y French though! Syria/Palestine 1941}, Great Uncle joined the Navy ended up on Dorsetshire. BTW don't belive all this bravado by the BB types it was Dorsetshire that sank the Bismarck!!!

Moving the convoy routes west 600 miles should be fine. I'm thinking of the hassles a PB would have to deal with. That is farther away, as noted, there is a lot of warships running around out there. Going to make life tough for anyone going after a convoy. Look at the Germans going after the PQ convoys, and that was off a friendly coast with no enemy bases in site. Tough for them. Also, moving it west will make life harder for air search. And the Axis desperately needs air search.

Agree with you on Mediera. Too far from the Azores to worry too much about losing. Have to hold the Azores though. Then again, it is hard for the Axis to get enough power onto Mediera and not be exposed. One thing for sure, whoever holds that rock is going to get a lot of visits from the other side's air force. Not going to be a popular place. Think Malta.

Yes I think so. I believe the British in the UK have about 12 divisions {36 brigades} only about half are properly eqipped {not including the 14 UK territorial divisions, all very poorly equipped} How many brigades do you think they could risk sending out from UK? I think maybe only 5 - 8? That is perhaps 2 each on Madeira Azores and 1 each on Iceland, CapeVerde's, with a couple more going to Egypt East Africa? What do you think?

Also I think they have about 60 - 70 Spit/Hurri squadrons, how many can the risk sending out from UK? Even though a NAVAL landing is tricky, Germany could still land paratroops in the UK {or so they worried}

 

[Freebird]

Yes I think so. I believe the British in the UK have about 12 divisions {36 brigades} only about half are properly eqipped {not including the 14 UK territorial divisions, all very poorly equipped} How many brigades do you think they could risk sending out from UK? I think maybe only 5 - 8? That is perhaps 2 each on Madeira Azores and 1 each on Iceland, CapeVerde's, with a couple more going to Egypt East Africa? What do you think?

Also I think they have about 65 - 70 Spit/Hurri squadrons, how many can the risk sending out from UK? Even though a NAVAL landing is tricky, Germany could still land paratroops in the UK {or so the UK worried}

What's your thoughts on this Tim? If they have about 70 modern fighter squadrons, I don't think they could risk sending more than 15 - 20 or so outside of the UK. presumably if this is following historical events {except for the Spanish} then Germany is still in a position to go several different directions, it wasn't until March/April of '40 that Hitler committed the bulk of the luftwaffe to the Balkans that the UK could determine what Germany was going to do.

If they have about 20 squadrons of Hurricanes {if even that}, they would need to base some at Malta, Azores, Madeira, Cape Verde, maybe Iceland, and of course in Egypt. How many in each?

How many Coastal Command squadrons were operational in Jan 1941?

 

[timshatz]

What's your thoughts on this Tim? If they have about 70 modern fighter squadrons, I don't think they could risk sending more than 15 - 20 or so outside of the UK. presumably if this is following historical events {except for the Spanish} then Germany is still in a position to go several different directions, it wasn't until March/April of '40 that Hitler committed the bulk of the luftwaffe to the Balkans that the UK could determine what Germany was going to do.

If they have about 20 squadrons of Hurricanes {if even that}, they would need to base some at Malta, Azores, Madeira, Cape Verde, maybe Iceland, and of course in Egypt. How many in each?

How many Coastal Command squadrons were operational in Jan 1941?

Was still kicking around the previous post. Haven't made up my mind just yet. I am of the mind that Malta and Gibraltar are done, Madiera is a maybe and the Cape Verde, Iceland and Azores have to be held. For now, we'll slug it out with regards to Madiera. That is where the fight for now will be. It is an outpost for the mouth of the Med. Keep it and you can patrol the approaches much easier and the chances of a Raider/PB/Invasion Force/whatever getting out and into the South Atlantic unnoticed are much smaller.

I can supply Mediera, the Azores and Cape Verde much easier than Malta and Gibraltar. Going with 6 squadrons of fighters to Azores, 4 to Cape Verde and 3 to Mediera. Remaining 7 go to Egypt. Azores can reinforce Mediera, if need be. Let's see how this thing develops.

As for the convoy routes, shifting them west should be fine. Even if the avg speed of a convoy is 10kts and the speed of a raider is 22 knts, we're looking at a closure speed of 12 nots. That's 240 miles per day. AND, the ocean is a big place. You can always re-route a convoy or turn it around to give the raider fits. As I said earlier, the raiders aren't the real problem. They are powerful and fast. But there is so much heavy iron floating around in the Southern Atlantic, you'd have to be nutz to take it on.

Still, my primary goal is to get that Italian Fleet. That is my focus. Even if a raider does get loose, I am not breaking up my setup in the Mid-Atlantic to go chasing after it. Until I find out the Italians are Sunk, back in Port or back in the Med, that is my primary focus.

 

[timshatz]

Iceland goes to the US. Even a token force will do.

2 Brigades to the Azores, one to Mediera, 2 to Cape Verde. We can lose Mediera and stay in the fight. Lose Cape Verde or Azores and it's over. Sea lanes are cut and we really can't get them back without a major amphib landing.

On the plus side, the Axis has no amphib experience and the Parachute attack that happened over Crete is definitely not adviseable over Mediera. To great a distance, too much in the way of defenses.

 

[Freebird]

Was still kicking around the previous post. Haven't made up my mind just yet. I am of the mind that Malta and Gibraltar are done, Madiera is a maybe and the Cape Verde, Iceland and Azores have to be held. For now, we'll slug it out with regards to Madiera. That is where the fight for now will be. It is an outpost for the mouth of the Med. Keep it and you can patrol the approaches much easier and the chances of a Raider/PB/Invasion Force/whatever getting out and into the South Atlantic unnoticed are much smaller.

I can supply Mediera, the Azores and Cape Verde much easier than Malta and Gibraltar. Going with 6 squadrons of fighters to Azores, 4 to Cape Verde and 3 to Mediera. Remaining 7 go to Egypt. Azores can reinforce Mediera, if need be. Let's see how this thing develops.

.

Are you sure that you would want to abandon Malta? I would think it would be better to hold it, even if it does eventually fall it will keep the attention of the Italians from planning something more ambitious, like Madeira or Verde's.

What about sending a 3 squadrons to Azores, 3 to Cape Verde 4 to Malta instead? I don't think the Axis could get more than a couple of squadrons {on A/C carriers} to attack the Azores. Also I think of the 20 squadrons sent it should include the 4 or 5 squadrons of Blenhiem fighters, as their long range can help double as maritime patrol.

 

[timshatz]

Ok with the Blenhiems. Will work kind of like the JU88 over the Bay of Biscay. Definitely do a number on the LR Axis birds. Actually, that would be a pretty good move.

As for Malta, I'm thinking this time the Axis doesn't screw up and goes into the Med full force and not half cocked. That is one of my reasons for getting that Italian fleet. If we can sink the BB, CVL and one or two of the CA/CL combos, we will change the balance of power in the Med. Then, we have a stronger fleet in there than the Axis. We have a chance to make a stand in the Med as their lines of communication would be at risk. But if we can't get that fleet, then somebody over there may wake up and take it back into the Med. Once that happens, the Axis shows some brains, takes Malta, reinforces the Italians in N. Africa in a big way and starts driving on the Suez Canal. Then, the British fleet is going to have to leave the Med, it becomes an Axis lake and Turkey and the Balkans are driven into the Axis camp. The Allies are stuck with trying to Reinforce the Oil Fields (to stop the drive towards Iraq and Saudi) and stop any threats coming south from the Suez. All of the sudden, the war gets a lot darker for the Allies.

Everything depends on that fleet right now. After that, it depends on Herr Hitler and his myopia for Russia. If he doesn't go after it again and head's south, it is a big problem for the Brits.

Hold the fighters for Malta for present. Let's see how this thing develops. We've got all our stuff after that Italian fleet and the rest of the forces either running a holding action or covering convoys.

 

[Lucky13]

Just thought I'd see if I could bring this thread back to life....

 

[Freebird]

Just thought I'd see if I could bring this thread back to life....

I feel a little guilty for letting this one stall.

I completely re-worked the map, then my laptop fried I lost all the data.

I'll have to do it again....

 

[JugBR]

a fleet of u-boats should fits fine for my fictional country needs

 

[Freebird]

a fleet of u-boats should fits fine for my fictional country needs

Which country are you thinking of?

If you are talking about the "Maritime Economic Power" {British Empire} then with a fleet of U-boats it will be difficult to enforce an economic blockade. By their interpretation of laws of the Sea the British cruisers could stop US cargo ships bound for Nazi Germany and refuse them entry. But torpedoing them would surely provoke hostility between the US UK. Also subs are almost useless at protecting shipping from hostile subs.

And how would you deal with surface raiders? Subs are too slow to catch Bismarck or Sheer class raiders

Now if you are only thinking of the Axis powers like Germany, then that might work. However the Axis also needed to support operations in N. Africa, which subs can't do either.