Lucky13
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CNO (or what it's called) of this your fictional country, what would your pride and joy, your navy look like? Which are your destroyers, destroyer escorts, cruisers, carriers, submarines....etc. etc?
It's 1940 and you're....
- Thread starter Lucky13
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Need more parameters. Is it a continental power or island nation? How far away are you key threats? What are you natural resources and how far away are the key resources from your shores.
Are you a Maritime Power (such as England) or is your power found primarily in an Army (Soviet Union or Germany)? Do you have a seperate Air Force and is the Naval Air Force part of the Navy or a adjunct of the Air Force?
Do you have colonies? Does your apponent have colonies? Where are they in relation to your strengths and weaknesses?
Are you a Maritime Power (such as England) or is your power found primarily in an Army (Soviet Union or Germany)? Do you have a seperate Air Force and is the Naval Air Force part of the Navy or a adjunct of the Air Force?
Do you have colonies? Does your apponent have colonies? Where are they in relation to your strengths and weaknesses?
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Lucky13
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I'll have to get back on this chaps, getting ready for my nightshift....good questions though!
Have a good shift.
Depending on the answers, you might not even need a Navy. For the Soviet Union, it was not strategically relevent. However, for England, it was the only reason they stayed in the war (water, water everywhere and panzers don't float).
Also, the nature of the threat is important. The US in 1940 needed a Navy to keep the war away from her shores. It was required to project power as well. But the Navy's main task was to defend the US. As such, a heavy bomber fleet (going on the theory of the B17 and B24 being Maritime Attack Aircraft- weak, but that was what they sold Congress on) would be as important to the stategic plan as battle fleet/carrier fleet.
Lots to consider, but once refined, it could be interesting to kick around.
Depending on the answers, you might not even need a Navy. For the Soviet Union, it was not strategically relevent. However, for England, it was the only reason they stayed in the war (water, water everywhere and panzers don't float).
Also, the nature of the threat is important. The US in 1940 needed a Navy to keep the war away from her shores. It was required to project power as well. But the Navy's main task was to defend the US. As such, a heavy bomber fleet (going on the theory of the B17 and B24 being Maritime Attack Aircraft- weak, but that was what they sold Congress on) would be as important to the stategic plan as battle fleet/carrier fleet.
Lots to consider, but once refined, it could be interesting to kick around.
DBII
Senior Master Sergeant
interesting thread.
DBII
DBII
joy17782
Airman 1st Class
Yeah get back on this one lucky, sounds like a real good thread
Thorlifter
Captain
Yeah, I don't think we've done this one. I think Erich may like this thread, with his interest in the Kriegsmarine. (did I spell that right?)
Set it up Lucky and lets have some fun with it. And stop this stupid excuse of having to work. It never stops me from posting!
Set it up Lucky and lets have some fun with it. And stop this stupid excuse of having to work. It never stops me from posting!
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Lucky13
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1: This our country is an island nation.
2: We are a maritime nation.
3: We have to import rubber, tin, copper, aluminium among other things...but we do have our own iron ore and coal mines.
4: Key threats are TWO other nations, which we've been in conflict with before in the past. We're not the biggest nation of the three, but more in between the two in size and population, they're also almost on our doorstep.
5: We have an Air Force, but our Naval Aviation is just about to celebrate it's 20th birthday.
6: We have colonies that has been supplying us with what we need minerals etc. and so does our "neighbours", but they haven't been so lucky. Our colonies are on the other side of the world. They have also just discovered oil in our colonies!
I hope that this will help a wee bit...
2: We are a maritime nation.
3: We have to import rubber, tin, copper, aluminium among other things...but we do have our own iron ore and coal mines.
4: Key threats are TWO other nations, which we've been in conflict with before in the past. We're not the biggest nation of the three, but more in between the two in size and population, they're also almost on our doorstep.
5: We have an Air Force, but our Naval Aviation is just about to celebrate it's 20th birthday.
6: We have colonies that has been supplying us with what we need minerals etc. and so does our "neighbours", but they haven't been so lucky. Our colonies are on the other side of the world. They have also just discovered oil in our colonies!
I hope that this will help a wee bit...
Your screwed.
No, seriously. Tell us about the two threats. Especially, the larger of the two. How about an air force? Tell us a lot about the air force. Does it have strategic bombers? If so, how many. Are they the closer of the two threats? Does their military have any experience in the recent past.
Same set of questions go for the smaller of the two nations.
How much water seperates you from them both.
Do both of them have a fleet? If so, what is the size in proportion to your fleet? What kind of offensive power do they have? Do they have carriers? Is their naval air arm experienced? How about subs? Do they have subs, if so, how many and how much of a threat are they to your lines of communication?
The reason why I ask so many questions is to try to get the nature of the threat. Building the Air Force is going to require you to deal with threats, both strategic (Naval Assets, Economic Production, ect) and tactical (are the threatening nations so close that Fighter Sweeps across your country are almost a certainty).
It might help to use countries that now exist (say The British Isles), define them in terms of who is in in that area (Scotland, N. Ireland and Britain in, Ireland out). Also, it might help to do the same thing with your threats. Say it is 1938 and your threats are France and Spain. Or Germany and France. Norway and France.
Just to give you some options on simplifying it.
No, seriously. Tell us about the two threats. Especially, the larger of the two. How about an air force? Tell us a lot about the air force. Does it have strategic bombers? If so, how many. Are they the closer of the two threats? Does their military have any experience in the recent past.
Same set of questions go for the smaller of the two nations.
How much water seperates you from them both.
Do both of them have a fleet? If so, what is the size in proportion to your fleet? What kind of offensive power do they have? Do they have carriers? Is their naval air arm experienced? How about subs? Do they have subs, if so, how many and how much of a threat are they to your lines of communication?
The reason why I ask so many questions is to try to get the nature of the threat. Building the Air Force is going to require you to deal with threats, both strategic (Naval Assets, Economic Production, ect) and tactical (are the threatening nations so close that Fighter Sweeps across your country are almost a certainty).
It might help to use countries that now exist (say The British Isles), define them in terms of who is in in that area (Scotland, N. Ireland and Britain in, Ireland out). Also, it might help to do the same thing with your threats. Say it is 1938 and your threats are France and Spain. Or Germany and France. Norway and France.
Just to give you some options on simplifying it.
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- #10
Lucky13
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No problem at all Mr T....
As for distance between the countries.... Well,
1: 1500 miles, larger and the smaller 1350 miles, also they are continental powers and neighbours as well, which more or less have had their eyes on our colonies beacuse of the minerals and rubber etc.
2: Bombers, recent rumours say that the larger nation is developing four engined heavies, while the other slightly smaller nation due to lack of funds, for now, are upgrading their medium bombers...range and altitude. Fighters and dive bombers constantly improved...
3: Both have a relatively strong fleets with battleships, destroyers, cruisers, carriers and subs....the three having always followed each other in development *you build a cruiser, I build two*. As for experience of the fleets....no wartime experience as of lately. The larger has just finished developing a new torpedo bomber.
4: Subs.... They both have something similar to the Type VII class.... The larger have 90 and the smaller 65.
Keep ask more questions if needed....
As for distance between the countries.... Well,
1: 1500 miles, larger and the smaller 1350 miles, also they are continental powers and neighbours as well, which more or less have had their eyes on our colonies beacuse of the minerals and rubber etc.
2: Bombers, recent rumours say that the larger nation is developing four engined heavies, while the other slightly smaller nation due to lack of funds, for now, are upgrading their medium bombers...range and altitude. Fighters and dive bombers constantly improved...
3: Both have a relatively strong fleets with battleships, destroyers, cruisers, carriers and subs....the three having always followed each other in development *you build a cruiser, I build two*. As for experience of the fleets....no wartime experience as of lately. The larger has just finished developing a new torpedo bomber.
4: Subs.... They both have something similar to the Type VII class.... The larger have 90 and the smaller 65.
Keep ask more questions if needed....
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
I would have destroyers, destroyer escorts, cruisers, carriers, and submarines.
Lucky, what is the fuel situation? It sounds like Norway sortof. Between Germany and Russia.
Lucky, what is the fuel situation? It sounds like Norway sortof. Between Germany and Russia.
Thorlifter
Captain
Ok, I'll take first crack at this and we can tweek it. I would have two fleets (consider it a Pacific and Atlantic fleet). I picked just from the U.S. arsenal of what was operational in 1940. If we can mix and match, my battleships would be Bismarck class.
Fleet 1 (on the side of the smaller threat)
2 Carriers (1 Yorktown class and 1 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
4 Escort Carriers
3 Battleships (Pennsylvania class)
5 Heavy Cruisers
14 Light Cruisers
38 Destroyers
55 Destroyer Escorts
52 Subs
Plus support ships
Fleet 2 (on the side of the larger threat)
3 Carriers (2 Yorktown class and 1 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
5 Escort Carriers
4 Battleships
4 Heavy Cruisers
15 Light Cruisers
50 Destroyers
72 Destroyer Escorts
75 Subs
Plus support ships
Airforce
274 P-40 Warhawks
80 Buffalos
120 B-17's
30 PBY Catalina's
Fleet 1 (on the side of the smaller threat)
2 Carriers (1 Yorktown class and 1 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
4 Escort Carriers
3 Battleships (Pennsylvania class)
5 Heavy Cruisers
14 Light Cruisers
38 Destroyers
55 Destroyer Escorts
52 Subs
Plus support ships
Fleet 2 (on the side of the larger threat)
3 Carriers (2 Yorktown class and 1 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
5 Escort Carriers
4 Battleships
4 Heavy Cruisers
15 Light Cruisers
50 Destroyers
72 Destroyer Escorts
75 Subs
Plus support ships
Airforce
274 P-40 Warhawks
80 Buffalos
120 B-17's
30 PBY Catalina's
- Thread starter
- #13
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
How about the heavy cruisers being something like the New Orleans class, and the light of Brooklyn class?
The destroyers maybe of the Japanese Asashio Class and the older of Fubuki Class...
I have no idea of destroyers escorts in excistense in 1940....
The destroyers maybe of the Japanese Asashio Class and the older of Fubuki Class...
I have no idea of destroyers escorts in excistense in 1940....
Not bad Thor, not bad at all.
Couple of ideas on Thor's call.
-Probably lite on Cruisers, both light and heavy. All those colonies so far away leave the merchant fleet exposed to raiders. Brits covered that by making a ton of cruisers. Would probably be a good idea to do the same with our fictional country.
-Think you have a good line on the DE and DDs. Both as escorts and hunter killers. Good to have more than less. Figure 33% are at sea at any given time, doing their jobs. Rest are up for refit, in port, coming or going, ect.
-Carriers might be a tad lite. Might be another one on both sides. Even a light carrier would boost the numbers. Both Carrier and Battleship numbers would be in reference to the opposition's numbers. Like to have at least 1.5X the number of the opposition combined.
-Think the Airforce is light on everything. Think of the RAF or Luftwaffe in 1940. Our total is around 500 aircraft. Need about 3x to start. Not sure it would be good to just mulitiply by 3 to get the total but it would suffice. Also, no cargo or liason aircraft. Would want about 200-300 cargo birds, C47. As for liason, something like a Lysander or even the Grasshopper would do.
But on the whole, it looks ok for a start. Just Cruisers and a larger airforce and we can start the ball rolling.
Then again, have to see what the opposition has. Make it interesting.
Couple of ideas on Thor's call.
-Probably lite on Cruisers, both light and heavy. All those colonies so far away leave the merchant fleet exposed to raiders. Brits covered that by making a ton of cruisers. Would probably be a good idea to do the same with our fictional country.
-Think you have a good line on the DE and DDs. Both as escorts and hunter killers. Good to have more than less. Figure 33% are at sea at any given time, doing their jobs. Rest are up for refit, in port, coming or going, ect.
-Carriers might be a tad lite. Might be another one on both sides. Even a light carrier would boost the numbers. Both Carrier and Battleship numbers would be in reference to the opposition's numbers. Like to have at least 1.5X the number of the opposition combined.
-Think the Airforce is light on everything. Think of the RAF or Luftwaffe in 1940. Our total is around 500 aircraft. Need about 3x to start. Not sure it would be good to just mulitiply by 3 to get the total but it would suffice. Also, no cargo or liason aircraft. Would want about 200-300 cargo birds, C47. As for liason, something like a Lysander or even the Grasshopper would do.
But on the whole, it looks ok for a start. Just Cruisers and a larger airforce and we can start the ball rolling.
Then again, have to see what the opposition has. Make it interesting.
Thorlifter
Captain
Your right Lucky. Upon a little investigation, destroyer escorts didn't exist yet. Good ideas Tim. While it would be great to say 25 Aircraft carriers and 37 battleships, I considered how many battleships the US and Germany had in 1940 and went with that and tried to be resonable. So, hows this........
Fleet 1 (on the side of the smaller threat)
3 Carriers (1 Yorktown class and 2 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
7 Escort Carriers
3 Battleships (Pennsylvania or Bismarck class)
7 Heavy Cruisers
19 Light Cruisers
48 Destroyers
62 Subs
Plus support ships
Fleet 2 (on the side of the larger threat)
4 Carriers (2 Yorktown class and 2 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
5 Escort Carriers
4 Battleships (Pennsylvania or Bismarck class)
7 Heavy Cruisers
18 Light Cruisers
60 Destroyers
85 Subs
Plus support ships
Airforce
400 P-40 Warhawks
150 Buffalos
300 B-17's
60 PBY Catalina's
200 DC-3
100 Stearmans
Again, it would help to know what we are going up against. Lucky, how about a little intel about what the "enemy" has. And can we mix and match or stay with one nations equipment? If we can, then I'm throwing the Buffalos in the trash and getting me some 109's or Hurricanes.
Fleet 1 (on the side of the smaller threat)
3 Carriers (1 Yorktown class and 2 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
7 Escort Carriers
3 Battleships (Pennsylvania or Bismarck class)
7 Heavy Cruisers
19 Light Cruisers
48 Destroyers
62 Subs
Plus support ships
Fleet 2 (on the side of the larger threat)
4 Carriers (2 Yorktown class and 2 Ranger class)
(F4F Wildcats, Dauntless, Devastators)
5 Escort Carriers
4 Battleships (Pennsylvania or Bismarck class)
7 Heavy Cruisers
18 Light Cruisers
60 Destroyers
85 Subs
Plus support ships
Airforce
400 P-40 Warhawks
150 Buffalos
300 B-17's
60 PBY Catalina's
200 DC-3
100 Stearmans
Again, it would help to know what we are going up against. Lucky, how about a little intel about what the "enemy" has. And can we mix and match or stay with one nations equipment? If we can, then I'm throwing the Buffalos in the trash and getting me some 109's or Hurricanes.
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- #16
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Well, I'll see what "our spies" has to show....
The new four engined bombers are already confirmed....
The new four engined bombers are already confirmed....
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- #17
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Just got this from my courier....three new battleships on ships sea trials....
joy17782
Airman 1st Class
Thor i dont think there was escort carriers in 1940, there was the light carriers the japaneese had, and the heavy cruiser class, could,nt you support this class with the duetchland class pocket battle ships, .And also wouldnt also be better too use britsh carrier,s because of there steel decks? and also minesweepers the french used were also sub chaser,s will look up in my book when i get home at 4 alsso AS I LOOK AT THE PICS THE SPY SENT the first pick is a french battle ship , how you can tell the class is that there is no distinctive funnel this class had the funnel and rear control tower built togeather, , second one is a bismark class battleship or duetchland class pocket battle ship , look at the seaplane spotter and the crane the second i think is the early 30 s french battle ship, also it might be a italian pola battle ship class . when you look at these dont look at the gun size , look at the fire control and engine , ie fuel oil consupstion also not many ships had the radar systems will get back with the class of ships
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- #19
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Their latest aircraft carrier...
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- #20
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
The British carried less aircraft than US ones 60 compared to 90 was it?
