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Japanese Versus American Victory Claims (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter MIflyer
- Start date
andrewgeorge
Airman
- 73
- Mar 20, 2024
I can think of two reasons that probably explain that taking place:
1. "Confirmed" kills of aircraft that were never shot down are often unfalsifiable. If 5 pilots submitted claims totaling 7 enemy aircraft for an engagement in which 2 enemy aircraft were actually lost, how do you determine which of the claims were accurate/inaccurate? Sometimes a historian can piece together multiple accounts from different perspectives (pilots, ground observers, ground crew back at base) that tend to validate a particular claim. But a lot of the time there's just no way to know.
2. Former combat pilots' service records were extremely important to their military careers and to them personally even after they left the military. Revising someone's combat record *downward* decades after the war ended is not something most people want to do for pretty good reasons. If it turns out Dick Bong probably only *actually* shot down like twenty Japanese planes, there's a constituency of people (relatives, fellow pilots, the state of Wisconsin) that aren't going to want to hear it, understandably. So it's not done—officially, anyway.
I'm sure someone may be able to provide something more concrete here, but that's my intuition anyway.
GregP
Major
2. "Former combat pilots' service records were extremely important to their military careers and to them personally even after they left the military. Revising someone's combat record *downward* decades after the war ended is not something most people want to do for pretty good reasons. If it turns out Dick Bong probably only *actually* shot down like twenty Japanese planes, there's a constituency of people (relatives, fellow pilots, the state of Wisconsin) that aren't going to want to hear it, understandably. So it's not done—officially, anyway."
Tell, that to Greg Boyington. As far as I know, he is the only ace to have his kills downgraded since Joe Foss was running for Governor of South Dakota at the time.
Since they can't "take away" his victories, they changed the context to "victories achieved in U.S. service," and then claim that the AVG were a Chinese organization even though we supplied the aircraft, pilots, and most maintenance personnel as well as the few spare parts that actually arrived.
Tell, that to Greg Boyington. As far as I know, he is the only ace to have his kills downgraded since Joe Foss was running for Governor of South Dakota at the time.
Since they can't "take away" his victories, they changed the context to "victories achieved in U.S. service," and then claim that the AVG were a Chinese organization even though we supplied the aircraft, pilots, and most maintenance personnel as well as the few spare parts that actually arrived.
Irregualr23
Airman
- 70
- May 13, 2025
This criticism had already been made of Claringbould's work, and I think the same problem appears in many works on this period.
The problem is mainly caused by comparing selected losses and claims from IJNAF forces with the total losses and claims of all Allied forces in a theatre. This can make it look as though "Allied victory claims are wildly exaggerated, while Japanese claims are merely inaccurate".
I should admit that I am no expert on the history of the Central Pacific around 1943, but I can offer some examples from Umemoto's Kaigun Zero-sentai Gekitsui Sentōki where he mostly counting losses & claims from 201st, 204th and 253rd Kokutai. (Umemoto's statistics may have influenced Claringbould's narrative, as his work published after Umemoto's.) A good example would be, on July 2, 1943, a joint operation was carried out to bomb Allied installations. Umemoto described the result as one Allied Corsair lost and two more forced to land, with no Japanese losses, and concluded that the exchange was "1:0." However, IJAAF Ki-61s and Ki-43s also took part, and at least three Ki-61s failed to return. These losses were not included in Umemoto's account.
The same series offers another clear example of mixed categories. On July 18, it gives the exchange as "11:3," listing eleven American aircraft losses against three Japanese pilot fatalities. Three dead pilots do not establish that only three Japanese aircraft were lost, yet the figures were used to draw an exchange ratio.
A similar problem appears in the account of March 19, 1945. The 343rd Kokutai has been credited with a 15:14 exchange ratio, but this leaves out IJAAF losses that day, including at least three Ki-43s and one Ki-84 reportedly shot down near Matsuyama. Other IJN and IJA units fighting near Kure were also not included, as well as those been strafed on the ground. Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy loss figure of fourteen included six aircraft lost after ditching or being damaged beyond repair. Those "selected Japanese losses" makes the USN claim of 50 looks like extremely exaggrated, and was clearly a way to doctor figure toward the Japanese side.
It should also be noted that the IJAAF itself acknowledged that its aircraft-loss records had been purposely destroyed by the order from IJAAF generals before the end of the war. As a result, the exact number of Japanese aircraft losses in each combat, especially the IJAAF forces, became difficult to establish and reconstruct, and researchers may find it easier to count pilot losses.
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andrewgeorge
Airman
- 73
- Mar 20, 2024
That's certainly different than going back and determining that, since X, Y, and Z confirmed kills did not actually take place, a former pilots official service record will reflect a reduction in confirmed victories.
Honestly, I was not aware that AVG service records were ever considered anything other than Chinese service!
andrewgeorge
Airman
- 73
- Mar 20, 2024
This helps me understand what you're referring to.
Regarding Claringbould, I do think you're right he is particularly enthusiastic about pointing out allied overclaiming, but my impression is that is more because he regards that as the more noteworthy part of his research. Popular histories, to the extent they've engaged with Japanese-language archives, have tended to correctly assume a significant degree of Japanese overclaiming, while Allied claims have been mostly left to stand since the war itself. So when he comes across a particularly extreme instance of allied overclaiming, he emphasizes it because it's a more surprising discovery.
I've never gotten the sense he downplays Japanese war crimes or whitewashes anything—If I recall he's written about the mass murder at Ballale repeatedly, and he notes when downed allied airmen were apparently executed by the Japanese military. I do agree generally that any nuts and bolts assessment of military operations in the Second World War—particularly when it comes to Axis forces—risks tone deafness when it comes to matters of larger importance.
I'm not familiar with Umemoto's work, but those do seem to be methodological flaws to rely on aircrew losses alone without any information about damage to returning aircraft, or to ignore the role of other engaged units just because you aren't working with those records.
I will just add that Claringbould's work isn't really an outlier though. Everyone who has worked with both Japanese and Allied military records seems to come to basically the same conclusions regarding overclaiming—and if you think about it, it's the only one that really adds up in the bigger picture of a given campaign.
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- Thread starter
- #27
MIflyer
Major
I can recall one book in which a USN pilot claimed that his unit had encountered a large flight of Japanese trainer aircraft and shot down quite a few of them, but then were told that since they were trainers that they did not count.
I do not recall any other cases in which kills were not counted because the enemy aircraft were not armed or otherwise were not described as combat aircraft. When Kamikaze attacks started a trainer was potentially as dangerous as anything else.
I do not recall any other cases in which kills were not counted because the enemy aircraft were not armed or otherwise were not described as combat aircraft. When Kamikaze attacks started a trainer was potentially as dangerous as anything else.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
This is like telling Lt. Curdes that his European victories don't count with his Pacific victories.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
That's surprising. Didn't downed transports count?
- Thread starter
- #30
MIflyer
Major
Yeah, sure. The 56 JU-52's those P-40's shot down on Palm Sunday 1943 sure counted.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I thought about that too. As the Ju-52's had "gun ports" of a sort, I didn't want to be fact checked. Again.
andrewgeorge
Airman
- 73
- Mar 20, 2024
I mean, not really? At least I don't see it that way. He was flying for the Chinese Air Force, paid (well) by the RoC, flying aircraft purchased by the RoC,
Do American eagle squadron pilots have their air to air records counted as RAF service or USAAF et al service?
If it's the latter, I'd agree that it's weird to single out the AVG. Otherwise, I think it would be a bit weird to count their AVG time as US service.
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Greg Boeser
1st Lieutenant
There has always been an animus toward the AVG. The services did not like their pilot pool being culled by a mercenary operation in the middle of their own attempts to build up.
- Thread starter
- #35
MIflyer
Major
Maj Howard, MOH winner, Had both USAAF and AVG victories on his P-51.
Look, it's an apples and oranges thing. Personal scores versus unit scores. There were a few pilots who flew for "both sides" such as Ex-Vichy France, that scored kills over both Allied and Axis aircraft, Wonder what they painted on their airplanes?
Actually, in the ETO they allowed ground strafing kills to be counted during the latter part of the war - very controversial. Have no idea if that was the case in the Pacific and CBI.
Look, it's an apples and oranges thing. Personal scores versus unit scores. There were a few pilots who flew for "both sides" such as Ex-Vichy France, that scored kills over both Allied and Axis aircraft, Wonder what they painted on their airplanes?
Actually, in the ETO they allowed ground strafing kills to be counted during the latter part of the war - very controversial. Have no idea if that was the case in the Pacific and CBI.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Donald Blakeslee made ace flying Spitfires for the RCAF and RAF Eagle Squadron, then acquired 10 more victories flying for the USAAF in P-47s and P-51s.
Flying for the RAF's Eagle Squadron would be no different than flying for the Chinese American Volunteer Group.
England and China were allies of the U.S. flying legitimate combat missions against an enemy at war.
And by the way, the USAAF awarded Lt. Curdes a victory for shooting down a U.S. transport that was about to fall into Japanese hands - which is why he had a US star painted on his cowling alongside Japanese and Italian insignias.
Irregualr23
Airman
- 70
- May 13, 2025
Umemoto frequently switching name between Hiroshi Ichimura and Hiroshi Umemoto, if you search Ichimura you will find both Dunn and Claringbould used his work as some sort of source, he was also a listed by Claringbould as one of the historical associates.
